Leading through chaos

Kari Wiens

Welcome, everyone. I'm so excited that we're extending our Women Leading the Way in B2B series with this next conversation focused on leading through chaos. I'm Kari Wiens with tmp, and I'll be the host today. And we've brought together an incredible group of marketing leaders who are not just managing change, but shaping how their teams and organizations respond to it. So to kick things off, we're going to go around the panel and introduce ourselves. And I'm going to ask each of our panelists, what's one source of chaos you're facing right now as a marketing leader? And what's one thing you personally do to create a bit of calm for yourself or your team? And I'm going to start with Charlotte.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Yes. Hello. My name is Charlotte Aspeheim. I'm the Global Head of Partner Field Marketing at Cognizant, which is a big consultancy company, and I'm based in Copenhagen. And yes, there are lots of changes happening in the way we work. We have a plan like we talked about, but everything is always changing. And we have new ideas on how we can implement better ways of working. And yeah, to create a bit of comfort for myself and within the organization I work, I am driving a lot of these big changes. And I try to be very available Don't write long mails. Give me a shout. Doesn't matter where in the world you are. Just call me. And have this dialogue going on real time to make people feel comfortable and reduce questions and things like that. And of course, finally, you have to prioritize. You can't do everything. You have to have your one, two, three lists. That was it.

Kari Wiens

Yeah, absolutely. Jill.

Jill Cross

Sure. Thanks, Carrie. Hey, everyone. I'm Jill Cross. I lead growth marketing at IBM, and I'm based in Austin, Texas. And I would say the one source of chaos that I'm facing right now, similar to Charlotte, we have just a ton of changes happening. And we've started with a major reorg about a month and a half ago. So we're about 45 days in to better align our go-to-market strategy. So a ton of positivity coming out of the chaos, but the team's really needing to have clarity and connection with the leadership team and the mission. We were talking about this before we went live. We're all in the midst of annual planning and all of the changes and how we're adapting to the marketplace. And then also at IBM, we are adopting AI everywhere. as a leadership team, we're really reshaping expectations overnight. And so, you know, I'm feeling this constant tension between moving fast and rapidly iterating, but ensuring that we're educating, bringing everyone along with clarity and purpose. Outcome. Some of the things that I do to create calm is, just creating some moments of pause in my day. So, whether it's just a quick walk, kind of getting away from Slack, getting away from messages, also even just putting in earbuds and listening to kind of like a hype up song. I love music and have kind of my hype, you know, hype up playlist. And, you know, just a few moments throughout the day to kind of reset and then be able to show up with the energy that's needed for, you know, whatever situation I'm about to walk into.

Kari Wiens

What's your go-to song?

Jill Cross

Oh, there's tons. There's, you know, there's Doja Cat, there's Florence and the Machine, there's, you know, Sophie Tucker. I have, you know, a wide variety of my My Hype songs.

Kari Wiens

Love it. Michelle.

Michelle Frantino

I like those type songs too. I need to channel that. I'm Michelle Frantino. I lead our brand marketing team here at Criteo. I'm the VP of brand marketing. I'm based out of New York. Similar answers from me to Charlotte and Jill. I think the pace of change is my chaos right now. Criteo is at the intersection of commerce and technology and AI is really powering the next wave of where we go next. So it's a lot to take in. It's a lot for a marketing team. There's more B2B tools out there than there ever has been from a marketing perspective. We're trying to figure out how to bring them in and how to use them, how to make our teams fluent in AI. And it's a lot to digest from a marketer perspective, but also meeting our customers and our clients where we are. I think my moment of clarity for the team and how I bring calm is really going back to the storytelling and saying, what are we trying to achieve? And what's the story that we're trying to bring to market? And I love echoing the ladies here. I love taking that moment of pause and trying to center your team. And like to Charlotte's point, getting them on the phone and saying, call me, let's talk it out. I think that brings calm to me as a leader to lean on the team, but then brings the team at center as well. Love it.

Kari Wiens

And Vicky, do you want to round us out?

Speaker 5

I will. Hi, everyone. Vicky McNamara. I am VP of Marketing here at Workday UK, and I'm based just out of London. So if I think about chaos, and we were talking about this earlier, we're in planning season in Workday. And I think with everything that you just, what my colleagues have said, it's the marketing that we've been doing is not the marketing that's going to take us forward for the growth. And so it's not planning in its usual sense this year at Workday. So having to look at, you know, in a matrix organization like Workday, looking at so many different data points, the health of the business, the business imperatives, what's happening within our audience, the marketing performance and in a matrix organization, that is complex. That's really complex. So it's trying to bring all that together to have that clear vision and that clarity on where we're going and how we're going to deliver the growth. So how do I do that? So in terms of staying calm, it's a bit like what you know, you said, Jill, it's taking, I think being as a leader, It's really important to pause. It's really important to pause and just really look at all the different data points and have the conversations with all of the teams in marketing that are helping to generate this pipeline. Just to make sure that I'm just making the right decisions. Make right decisions with a good intention that's really going to deliver the value. And that brings me calm and that helps my team and the wider team have calm as well because we're confident. We're confident in the decisions that have been made.

Kari Wiens

Absolutely. And Vicki, I'm going to take what you said about complex and move that into our discussion today. So I'm going to actually start with you for our next question. We know that B2B feels more complex than ever right now. Everything around you is unpredictable. How do you help your team stay focused and what matters?

Speaker 5

So yeah, that's a big one. So it's typical, it's great at the moment as we are looking into the planning and how we can bring everyone onto the journey with us. And what you said is like, there's lots going on. There's, you know, the longer sales cycle, there's huge macro trends, but also the expectations keep on going higher. You know, there's a big expectations on marketing. You know, we are the growth engine and when there is macroeconomics, we need to step up more. So how I do it and, you know, People always, say, a plan. But really, honestly, a plan is the most powerful thing. And that's something that I always use going through chaos. is just to confidently lead with that right plan. So, and that's integrated as well. So based on, again, using the data, where actually can we win? Where's the points pockets of opportunity? Where can high percentage need to sell, high percentage to win, et cetera. And then having that plan is that growth, because we are the growth engine. Sometimes we shouldn't get distracted from that and get distracted with short-term measures as actually think about we are a big tanker with many things happening. And if we get distracted and flip too much to the chaos, then that will impact our future pipeline, that will impact our customers' experience, that will impact short, longer, bigger opportunities by going short term. So it's really, to me, that's the bedrock, that's the North Star. And then we turn it up if we need to, and then we turn it down if we need to, but we don't move off that North Star.

Michelle Frantino

I think it's so important to have a plan. I can chime in and say, you have to create a place for your team to say no, right? They have to have the prioritization and the plan is the safe place, right? So if you stick to the plan, all the chaos that comes in, to Vicki's point that may be short term, right, or not as impactful, your team feels confident in saying no, right? And they feel part of the bigger story and the bigger plan and they know that their impact is put against the right thing. So create that place to say no for your team.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

I 100% agree. And it sounds very nice to be a part of your ship, Vicky. But also to stay true to something that Jill said, I think with Jill that said, you have to what story are we trying to communicate? And then and that you should stay so true to that. But then during the year, there might be new technologies, new ideas. So for example, we have started to we have white papers, and then we record them as podcasts as well. well You know different people want to digest our stories in different ways and that can kind of come up come on top of these great story our mission for the year, you know and then you you can use all these new ideas and technologies and channels but really stay true true to the story and The strategy and like Vicky said, you know, how are we going to win and reach our out to audience? Right now. Yeah Yeah.

Jill Cross

Sorry, I'll round this out. And just in terms of, you know, kind of creating some, you know, energy and rallying cry for, you know, my team on the changes that we drive, right, where we are the tip of the spear and we're the catalyst, while staying anchored in, you know, the same points, Vicki, Michelle, Charlotte, you were talking to, the things that won't change, our mission doesn't change, our focus on our outcomes don't change, our client first mindset don't So those are the elements that don't change, but we have this opportunity and this space to go and be empowered and think about things differently and reimagine things differently. It doesn't mean that the plan goes out the window. The plan is that anchoring point, but it does just create kind of some of that creative space in the midst of complexity and chaos.

Kari Wiens

Yes. But I do want to talk a little bit about the things that do change. So when things shift quickly, such as the economy, org changes, new tech shaking things up, share a little bit with us, Michelle, on what's a time when something outside forced you to rethink your strategy, and what did you do to adapt?

Michelle Frantino

Yeah, absolutely. Such a great question, and so timely this year to be talking about this. So I'm in the retail space here on the Criteo side. A few months back when tariff news was introduced, our US retail clients were facing cost pressures and changing plan and changing course, quite honestly. And I will never forget the day where most tariffs were announced, regular day having team meetings and all of a sudden one slack, two slacks, you see the number of slacks turn to 26. And I'm like, no, what is happening? And there's this feeling, I'm sure we all get on the B2B side of, my goodness, things change so fast, what's going on? Had tons of salespeople reaching out saying, have you seen this news? What do we do? Can we jump on a call, right? And automatically, when things like this happen, I think there is a sense of chaos, right, inside our organizations. And I think it's normal because so many people care, right? And the sales folks, where they're calm, where they're steady, right? They come to us when there is external chaos within, outside of the company and walls that they work in. And I remember a series of different calls that I had that day, right? And part of it is understanding the situation. Obviously, there's the macro, turning on the news, understanding, digesting what's happening economy wise. And then there's getting on the phone and hearing from the salespeople and digesting the news of what's happening with clients and what are they saying, right? And it's being calm and all of that. And it's doing a lot of listening. It's doing a lot of intaking. And then to come out the other side of it and say, okay, where are we with a plan right now? We understand what it means to clients. Their priorities are changing. Maybe they're shifting in focus. Maybe they're moving to more efficiency and resilience in a lot of where they're spending their money. And as a marketing leader, you digest all of that, right? And then go back and you look at the levers you have to pull. I think the biggest one being that you have to go back to What is the flexibility that I have in my plan, right? What can I do in this moment to change course? How do I meet the salespeople where they are? How do I meet our customers where they are? And how do I become part of the conversation that's happening in the wider environment right now? How do I push the brand into that realm, right? With also being empathetic to what's happening because this is This is a larger impact, right? Outside of our retail bid, it's also, it's consumer impact too, right? And there's a lot to weigh out within that. And I go back to the tried and true of making sure that you have flexibility built into your plan. So when you're in this moment of planning right now, you always give yourself a little wiggle room, right? And you always make sure that there's some team capacity or there's some unspent budget, because you may have to turn something on that you didn't know what you needed, right? And those are the moments that help us as B2B marketers navigate through and making sure that we're adapting our messaging to really be in tandem with what sales is feeling and what the customer needs at that time. So that's a recent memory. I'll never forget the day I know exactly how it went and every meeting I had on the back of the announcement of a ton of tariffs hitting. And I think it's moments like these that make us better leaders. Right? I think those are the days that we think back to when something else happens, and it feels chaotic. And how do we navigate through it?

Jill Cross

I love that. Change management, anything around transformation, those are topics that we all kind of live in our day-to-day. And of course, my algorithm is feeding me all of these articles and topics. And Michelle, that's a case study out of this Harvard Business Review article that really resonated where when you're taking advantage of kind of the space and the opening that chaos and complexity opens up and having kind of a shovel-ready plan where there might not have been opportunity to test new ideas or push forward an initiative until this moment where you have kind of a loosening of red tape or some resistance. You have kind of the rest of the organization looking at you saying, what do we do? How do we respond to these client demands? How do we respond to this market demand? So I feel like that's a case study out of this article in how to really adapt and respond to those moments. At IBM, my example is a little bit more of a slower burn, but we have been struggling for years with a pretty clunky tech stack, inefficient marketing and sales processes, pretty messy client data, probably topics that none of you marketers on the phone have to deal with. But I know that that is in all of our day-to-day. But with an organization the size of IBM, we were kind of doing quick fixes, band-aids, and it was really time to totally readdress our go-to-market. We had a string of recent acquisitions and acquisitions within companies are their own source of complexity and chaos. But this was the perfect moment to really use the acquisitions as kind of a Trojan horse, if you will. So adopting their best practices to really finally rethink our go-to-market strategy and how it's underpinned with technology. So it really created this perfect storm to unlock transformation. So what started with just a kind of technology conversation, it is now evolved into a full scale reorganization, which I mentioned earlier we're going through. It's driving conversations, cross-functional alignment across sales, marketing, product, our ecosystem, our CIO's office. It is full scale touching every part of the organization. And it's messy, right? Transformation is messy. It's not been smooth. We're still in the thick of it. I'm not quite sure I'm even seeing the light at the end of the tunnel just yet, but I know that we will get there. But again, it's just the willingness to step into that space that creates chaos. and the ability to reimagine everything and having a leadership team that's, you know, really locking arms and driving with clarity and purpose. And in the end, it's going to unlock growth for our organization because we're going to be able to reach customers and, you know, market segments that have, you know, not typically done business with us in the past. So it is transformation that is, you know, landing in meaningful revenue outcomes for the business.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Carrie? Yes. Yeah, my camera has frozen, but I'm going to say this. I have to say this. So we spoke about these macroeconomical situations that can happen. We can't do anything. We just have to deal with it. And I just have a little anecdote. It was many, many years ago. I was selling PCs for a big PC company over the phone. And all of a sudden, all PC companies, they bought their batteries from the same supplier somewhere in Asia. And I had to call all my customers, and it was hundreds and hundreds of PCs, and it was so embarrassing. But then a leader reminded me of that all PC companies are in the same situation. And sometimes I remind myself when the chaos comes, you know, and now you spoke about tariffs and yeah it can be anything you know and and and then I think that we are all in the same boat you know and that kept me going when I called all those customers about these DVD burners or whatever it was you know but uh I just kept I'm not the only one here you know it was just yeah motivated me in a way.

Kari Wiens

Well I can say Charlotte you you posed at the perfect moment to be able to have your camera freeze you look great I know

Speaker 5

Thank God. Vicky, do you have anything to add? Yeah, I just love all this conversation, actually. I know, and I think I agree, Charlotte. As leaders, there's always going to be something that will, that we have to adapt to, that will disable, like we've gone through a transformation in work day and completely agree, Jill. We're still on that journey. You know, transformation is really hard, but just accept that, you know. And it's important that you're transparent with the team. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think when you're creating transformations, one of the learnings that I've had is it's not going to be perfect. It's not. And so the team, just be clear of the team, it's not perfect. But collectively, let's keep on talking. Let's keep on working. to make sure we're feeding back on how we can make it perfect. Like in Workday, we're trying to break down silos. That's huge in a company of ours, even more in yours still, to be honest, you know? And that is hard work, but it is about the transparency, about the communication, bringing everybody onto the journey with us as well. And just know, as leaders, it's not perfect. I know it's not, you know, this is phase one. So let's collectively work, let's take what's in our control and let's try to work collectively to make it perfect so we can learn and adapt and get to that North Star that we want to get to. And that's something else that you said, Michelle, as well, I completely endorse, keep yourself, give yourself some headroom. You know, and I always keep, and my team's on the call, they know this, I always keep a little bit of my budget. Hidden. Discretionary. Discretionary, right? Yes, And to for moments like that, because there will be something that we do need to, you know, boost, you know, reinvest into something else. And we just need that flexibility. We really do.

Michelle Frantino

I hope none of our CFOs are listening in right now. They're like, oh no, we need to check the couch cushion. Some of the best advice I was given, and I think I'm reminded as we talk here by a mentor that I absolutely adore, is that as a marketer, you can't control the disruption, but you can control the clarity that you bring to the situation. And I think I think that's a big part of B2B marketing. And I think sometimes we forget to remind ourselves and give ourselves the grace that it takes a lot to do that. And it takes so much, right? And I think I'm hearing from this call from all of you that there's a certain level of empathy too that we as female leaders bring to that, which I think makes all of our companies better.

Kari Wiens

I'm going to carry off of that empathy. training a little bit and say, even with the best teams, right, we can feel the strain when resources are tight, expectations are high. So now I want to go around the panel and just please share one thing you do to help your team stay motivated, help your team look for innovative ways to do things, help your team feel aligned when all that pressure is going on. Vicki, I'll start with you.

Speaker 5

Gosh, yes, there's always tighter, there's always pressure, isn't there? And I'm sure most listeners today are sort of experiencing that. So A little bit more, Michelle, so I don't think I'll steal this from you, Michelle, but it is clarity. It's what really does matter. And, you know, work and personal life are really, oh, nearly blended now. And so everybody in their personal life and their work life just wants to feel like they're achieving something and they're part of something bigger. And so I think part of that is just having that clarity. And in Workday, it's pipeline. To be honest, it's pipeline. It glues everybody together, not just everybody in marketing, but everybody in the business as well, the language that everybody understands. And if you, and there are some parts of marketing that aren't connected to pipeline, you know, the e-mail engine so much, you know, that has to work through field. And so If you can all have that one metric and you bring everybody on board, they're feeling they're part of the business success. The part, their role helped do this. And that just for me helps bring motivation into my team, glues everyone together, and they're just part of something bigger.

Kari Wiens

Michelle.

Michelle Frantino

I think I'm going to go for collaboration. I think that in the way that the workplace has even evolved, right, there's so much of the time where we're behind a screen and we're alone, right? And I think a sense of collaboration is something that as a leader, I continue to push to the team to keep them motivated. and say the words out loud, you're not alone, right? This assignment is an open book assignment. Phone a friend, right? There's tons of people around you. And I think as marketers, oftentimes we carry this. We carry our work and we carry the ask may come from sales or products or whoever in the organization as our task to solve. And the reality is, is that at our core, we're storytellers, we're amplifiers, we're strategic thinkers, and there's a bunch of creativity, but we may not always be able to go alone. We may need to bring the right folks from the organization with us to achieve that goal. And I think I think that the remote work has potentially made us forget that. So I continuously try to hammer home to the team, phone a friend, call me, reach out to the people across the organization. No one's ever going to tell you no. And I've seen great outcome off the back of that. It is a mentality of there's tons of people here to help you get that work done. It's not ours alone to solve in marketing.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Yes. So, yeah, so first of all, I think it's important, you know, when you create your teams that they're not just different skill set, but also different personalities. So everybody is not everybody is not just like super hype, but you know, there are some calm people as well that can calm you down when, you know, the chaos hits the fan that we are talking about. But then I was also thinking about, you know, when you have been around for a while, you have also bumped into different cultures on teams, and some teams have really been open, there has been an open dialogue, although the big boss is at the table, you've been able to share your new ideas, and you have identified these problems that you could fix easily, but you just need to tell him or her about this. And to create this positive culture. And when, you know, the winds are not blowing the right direction, you know, I think it's even more important to have a friendly, warm culture that also encourages everybody on the team to pitch in with ideas to solve different kinds of challenges.

Jill Cross

I mean, I echo all of those sentiments. I mean, I think as leaders and maybe within our teams, our teams are looking to us and, to the wider leadership team sometimes for answers. And the reality is, y'all, that we don't have all the answers, And it really does, I mean, just echoing Michelle, like what each of you all said, it's the collaboration, the conversations, you know, connecting the dots, having the North Star, the clarity of outcomes. And also just a reminder to all of us that we need to be drivers in our own career and our own stories and not passengers. Be the hero of your own story and reach out for help. Peers and leaders and interns and all of those perspectives just make teams stronger, organizations stronger, and will really help in your career growth. Yeah.

Kari Wiens

So bringing it back to the heart of the series, women leading the way in B2B, as women leaders, what are some strengths that help you navigate chaos and uncertainty, and what advice would you give? And Charlotte, I'm going to start with you.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Yeah, so I think we have brought up so many great things that you can do, be available and all those things. But something I find in women leaders is that you don't just have to play the corporate game. You also have to be diplomatic. You have to find out why is this person acting like he does. Maybe it is his persona, maybe it is where he's from. And I think all of us here in this call, in this webinar, are working with very, very international companies. And we were just talking about Diwali, for example, in India. And before I joined Cognizant, I had not worked that much with India. So it took a while to figure out how to get the most out of the collaboration I had with all of these teams and figure out why they were doing you know it's the way they did or you know I was also 20 years at Dell computer actually and figure out why did all these tech guys find these cables so interesting you know and how to get behind their way of thinking and make them stop thinking that marketing was just a bunch of fluff Jill, I guess you know that. So to get behind that face and be a bit curious about the person, because we have to work. We talked about a good team, embraces a lot of different personas today, people from all over the world. And to make this work, you have to be interested in why they are doing it like they are. even nerds and the cable, you know, I have to work with them because I'm going to put them on my biggest stage for the year, you know? And I personally, I really, really enjoy that. I have a great passion for that. And yeah, that's, that's, I think my contribution as a female leader.

Jill Cross

Yeah. Yeah, I love that, Charlotte. The diplomacy point is so huge, just knowing your audience, being able to adjust your message. I think as women leaders, we kind of bring that unique strength of being able to read the room and adapt our approach. And I think to the point of empathy, I would say it's a combination of empathy and then a bias for action. So it's like, hey, on the empathy side, I totally get it. I get it, I feel you, I understand, I've been there, and then bias for action, now let's get on with it. What is the next best step to break through the noise? Again, going back to the idea of you're in the driver's seats and as leaders, we're in the driver's seats and we want to build teams that feel empowered to be in the driver's seat as well. And just kind of ending with a thought, a really important mentor of mine, she told me that I want to share for all of us, especially women just starting their career, but really at any level. she told me, she was like, Jill, if you have a seat at the table, know that you're there for a reason and use your voice. don't wait for the perfect conditions to speak up or to take ownership. You have the opening to, you know, drive change and shape the future. So know the role that you want to play and go in and play big, right? You know, play big, have a big voice because, you know, at the end of the day, why not?

Speaker 5

Yay. I love that, Jill. And I think, Building on that, it's like, this again, that clarity, isn't it? If you have that vision and you have that clarity and you're grounding it in the value, the why, then yeah, have the voice. Be confident in your voice and share that, you know, and bring everyone on the journey. And I think the additional to that would be authentic. Don't pretend as a leader. it's really important. we need to remove our masks as leaders. We are not, as we said on this call, we do not have all the answers and that's okay. B, let's share that and pull on those who would have the answers or have a different insight or have the skill set that can help resolve a problem. But we do need to just be, just share that. We need to share more and be authentic and allow others to remove their mask as well. Because as you said, Charlotte, everyone comes from different paths and we just need to be curious of that and remove those masks.

Michelle Frantino

I think. all around us out with saying, I think that's the superpower of women is that we're comfortable doing that. We're more comfortable doing that. I think it makes us relatable and we listen from a different place because we're so honest with who we are and sometimes overly honest. It can go the other way too. But I think our teams, I think we have an ability to inspire our teams. I think we do inspire teams because we wear that more as a medal of honor too, to just be humble and to be able to play into that empathetic leadership tone. So yeah, absolutely. I think it's a privilege. I think it's a privilege. And so much of the time, I know it's changing all over, but it's unique to see women leaders around the table and it's happening more and more. And I also feel that there's a camaraderie that is starting to happen at that level. And that's the magic, right? I think that's what's going to elevate us into getting through what comes next.

Kari Wiens

Absolutely. So diplomacy, taking action, empathy, clarity, and authenticity are all part of our wheelhouse, our toolbox. So switching a little bit and thinking about what happens as we move into the next five years, what's the capability or the mindset that every marketing leader is going to need to have to thrive? Jill.

Jill Cross

Sure. You know, it's like fast forward to five years. I'm like, oh, my goodness, I'm going to have two teenagers in my house in five years. Like that's a whole different as a whole different webinar topic. But I mean, I think that there's definitely differences that we're going to have to bring to the table in five years. But the thing that has really been steadfast, if I had to choose one, is the ability to be able to navigate at multiple altitudes. So just meaning that you can zoom out if you need to, to connect the strategic dots across your business, across different diverse teams, diverse points of view, but then also being able to really zoom in with your team teams, lead them through day-to-day complexity. And I think just with AI, the tools that like that skill to be able to zoom in and zoom out is really going to be non-negotiable. And as that bridges into the way that we're thinking about marketing as part of a component of a integrated go-to-market, it's not just marketing campaigns over here anymore, right? You start with your outcome, you start with the pipeline creation, and the go-to-market has to be aligned across product, sales, customer success, ecosystem, marketing. I think the leaders that really will thrive are the ones that can cut through the noise, align those teams, and drive the collective focus. And then lastly, you know, we have AI everywhere. AI is accelerating everything. And so just staying open to that is really key. Learning, curiosity. I think there's, you know, kind of this, you know, meme or that is going around of like the mindset set shift around AI is like you're no longer an expert, but you're an explorer, right? So thinking about how, you know, curiosity, constantly learning, you know, how you can adopt AI, when AI is your, you know, is your superpower, when you actually need to step back from AI and, you know, bring people together in a room to accelerate growth. So, Again, it's just, it's about the, I think, kind of more of the positive connotation around chaos and embracing chaos as a creative space and, you know, hitting on all the notes, Carrie, that you just went through, clarity, curiosity, collaboration, authenticity. I think those are really, you know, kind of the mindset that as leaders we have to take into the next five years.

Kari Wiens

And I'm surprised we made it till 40 minutes in before we mentioned AI. Anything to add?

Jill Cross

I'll leave it to the IBMer to call out AI.

Speaker 5

Yeah. The same here, actually. And I think five years, gosh, we're already now having to rewrite a lot of our models now. You know, the decisions are being made in different channels. The influencing of our buyers is in different channels. So to get to where we could be in five years, We kind of have to rethink, don't we? need to understand our buyers. To be honest, I'm not 100% hand on heart. Do we truly understand our buyers today? And how they are making decisions, where they're going to get influenced by those decisions. And that's going to influence our channel strategy, our content strategy. So that's a big kind of thing in my head at the moment is trying to get ahead. So we're not left behind, to be honest, because, you know, we all know generative search is And AI is faster than anything we've seen before. So for marketing, it's don't lie down and put your head in the ground. It's embrace it actually. We really do have to embrace it because what AI will do is automate a lot of things for us, but it allows us to get closer to the customer. So you mentioned you're being curious, you know, design thinking is gonna be critical. Creativity, critical. Collaboration, really important. These are things that we need to work through AI with those unique human skills that we have to really think how we are going to think about our landscape, connecting with our customers and influencing them very, very different ways.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

I like to go back a little bit to, I mentioned the world culture before when we talked about different teams. And now we have to create a culture that embraces AI, Gen. AI. So the company doesn't just buy all these tools, but nobody is actually using them. And I was speaking to one of our ladies in India and she was rolling out AI to 35,000 people in India. And I was like, wow. So her job was actually to create this culture for these teams to really embrace and start to experiment with these tools because we don't really know what they can do. And on top of that, to make the entire company embrace these tools, we had these huge AI hackathon. And so they gave, they supplied us with different coding tools, depending on what department we were in. And for marketing, we had Lovable, which was on our level. And you could go and do a web shop or just play around with websites, translate, things that we have spent a lot of money and time on before, translations in Europe, for example, always lots of opinions on that. But it really pushed everybody off the cliff, including me. Yeah, we got into the Guinness World of Records. Or the largest hackathon in the world or something like that. Yeah.

Kari Wiens

Amazing. That's awesome.

Michelle Frantino

Yeah.

Kari Wiens

I am going to save some time at the very end for audience Q&A. But before we get there, I did want to go back around the panel one more time and just, you know, to close out this idea of chaos. living in chaos, how we move to coherence. I do just want to see if everybody can share one step each of us can take this year to create more coherence in that chaos. And I'm going to start with Michelle.

Michelle Frantino

I'll go with, we have to invite each other in. We got to pull each other as women into rooms. We need to create conversation with folks that we think go back to collaboration, think that can help us get our jobs done, that can answer questions. and not go alone as leaders right now. That's good behavior. We need to be taken along as leaders at the companies we work for, and we should demand that. And we should bring our teams along too, because everyone right now is going through it. We're talking about it on this call. We've just met a couple of weeks ago, and we have so much in common that we can relate to each other on. And we have to drive that energy back into our organizations and our teams and create that healthy environment of pulling people into rooms, not going alone.

Speaker 5

Becky? I think one of the words I've heard a lot today is sort of clarity. So it's to take the time to be clear, be clear on what really matters to you, to you as a leader, what really matters to your team and just really, really anchor it, anchor it in the business because that will give you the confidence to really show up more and have that voice at the table. And then thinking about the softer skills of leadership, just be really authentic. Just bring your true self to work. No, be very honest about what maybe isn't your strengths. Be clear what your strengths are because you will then create more cohesion and support across your team. Yeah. Charlotte.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

I don't know what to add. I think clarity and then use the word priorities because sometimes You know, there's 100 priorities and then the leaders needs to, you know, help you have team priorities and then you ask, you know, your team members to focus on what they can influence, what they are good at, you know, so they don't start to think about all the problems in the world and the company and stuff like that. But yeah, by the end of the day, you need to take one step forward every day. Like Jill said before, you know, so yeah, clarity and priorities and Love the honesty as well, Vicky. Yeah.

Jill Cross

Yeah. I mean, plus 100 to all these amazing ladies and their contributions. I think it's just a reminder for all of us when change is always happening and chaos, external chaos is around us, I think instead of having it freeze us and where it creates kind of uncomfortable pressure, if you just kind of take a step back and remember that it creates space for opportunity, it creates space for innovation, and just remembering you are there for a reason, you have your voice, and this chaos and change might be your opportunity to shape what comes next in your career, in your organization, anchored in your outcomes, staying anchored in the clients that you're trying to reach, but you really have the space to drive the change and shape what comes next.

Kari Wiens

Love that. Let's switch over to some Q&A from the audience. So I'm going to kick it off with one. What are some of the ways you cope with things like feeling uncertain or overwhelming? Anyone.

Speaker 5

Sorry, can you repeat that? Sorry, I missed the beginning.

Kari Wiens

Yes, I'm sorry. So what are some of the ways you cope with feeling uncertain and overwhelming?

Speaker 5

Well, yeah, and that happens as a leader, doesn't it? You do, things do come at you. You do feel a bit, you know, out of your, you know, you do feel a bit uncertain at times. And I think you just, you need to step back. I think Jill, you said that you need to step back and breathe and think, okay, What's the end goal of this? Okay, who do I need to speak to? Use your network. Go within your internal network or your external, go and speak to somebody because you're not going to always have the answer and that's okay. Secondly is, and I know I've said it a lot, but You need to ground it in the value. What is the end goal of why you're being asked to do this or what does the company want to achieve or what? There's always a reason to why and ground yourself in that why and that will help focus. That will help focus you.

Jill Cross

I think that's really great advice. But yeah, spot on for me as well.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

100%. I usually sleep on things, I use that term, but it's the same as taking a step back, and just ground it and yeah.

Michelle Frantino

Yeah, I go back to use your network too, because if you're feeling something, it's highly likely that someone you know has been through something similar or can lend advice in a bigger way. I think sometimes the chaos that we run into brews within our own organizations. And the minute you take that outside of your organization and you lean on somebody else a little bit further from it. Somehow it helps you come down, right? And you find your center and your clarity and you go back to the plan, right? So I think the value of networking, and I have a bench of people, I call them my board of directors, and they're not here at Criteo with me. At one point, some of them were. But whenever I'm really challenged or feeling frustrated or I feel that inflection point in my career, I go back to my board of directors and they bring me calm, right? And as a leader, you need to find those people. Sometimes it's people, it's person, right? Remember how important that is because you go through a lot as a leader and you deal with a lot of other people's problems, right? Your team's problems, you take that all on and you need to figure out who you're gonna bring some of your worry to. And that's totally valid. Everybody has somebody, so find your people.

Kari Wiens

Love that.

Jill Cross

That's great.

Kari Wiens

All right, second question here. Taking it back to a business lens, can you discuss how you effectively ask for direction from your leadership during times of change without feeling needy?

Jill Cross

That is a really interesting, that's a really interesting question. I think if I were speaking to someone on my team that was struggling with something, I think just recognizing that, hey, maybe this isn't as clear. Sometimes as a leadership team, you kind of know how all the sausage is being made, if you will. And I think always asking for context and clarity you show up differently with your leader. So I think just leaning into not a negative connotation of being needy or. needing something that someone else doesn't, it's just like, hey, I really want to be part of this. I really think that this is something that I'm passionate about. I want to be really super clear on the context where this is coming from and clarity so I can help you leader drive this change. So I would just brush any of that neediness and feeling off your shoulder and and step into it and be confident in the questions that you're asking. It's our jobs as leaders to provide that clarity.

Michelle Frantino

Yeah.

Jill Cross

Yeah.

Michelle Frantino

Find your safe place and how you ask the question, right? Because no one's ever going to get upset with you saying, I want to be clearer so I can distill this into the organization and help to clear up this problem or that problem. If you approach it that way, no one is going to say, I don't have time for this, right? So think about your phrasing too, because that's your role as a leader, right? There's a cascade effect, and a lot of the ladies here are bigger organizations than me, and I feel that within my organization. right? If we're unclear, you know, that there's it's a trickle down, right? So if you ask it that way, I don't never think that your leadership is going to be annoyed or feel that you are being too needy.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Yeah, I have something to add to this as well. Yeah, sometimes, you know, I I've always been working in companies that are really, really big. But I've still always felt like an entrepreneur. I see this little thing there and then I go to the boss. This kind of really addresses the question here. Two times out of three, they're all very positive, you know? Yeah, go and do it, you know? And then the third time, they might think, nah, drop that, you know? But I mean, it's like you were saying, Michelle, just share. And we also spoke about that before, that the leaders can't see everything, you know? People on the ground needs to contribute.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Now I love that bit and I actually endorse everything that my panelists have said and I'm just picking up on your point, Charlotte. It's like, that's also something that we need to talk more about. We don't know everything. We really do not. You know, we can't keep above everything of what's going on down below, to the sides, up above, et cetera, like that. So if you feel like going into a meeting being needy, the question or asking for something, again, it's what you said, it's just clarity. just ask questions, be brave and ask a question, I think is the first thing. And what is the impact that maybe the person you're speaking to doesn't know? I just had that actually this morning where our sales organization is increasing, marketing is not. My head of the UK, he didn't know that. And he didn't put that part of his three-year plan. And so I explained to him, well, This is the impact, actually. So I need to know we need to work together to create a model that's not going to cover the whole of your business. I need to go on where the opportunity is. So it wasn't really sort of going in with I'm a flat resource. It's very much of we just need to work together now. I need to ask you some questions. We need to work together because this is the state of the business and we need to come to a solution together.

Jill Cross

Yeah, and remember, if you're asking questions, it's, and as a leader, whenever I hear different questions, I'm like, this person is probably not the only one that has this question. Where are we missing in terms of enablement, upskilling, setting the context? So it, is really important, be brave and ask the question because it will probably help here, other teams and people that are sitting right next to you as well.

Kari Wiens

All right, one more question before we wrap it up. How do you deal with difficult people or even sexism in your team, but also at your level or a higher level?

Speaker 5

Interesting, what's the first bit?

Kari Wiens

How do you deal with difficult people or even sexism?

Speaker 5

Well, I don't think there's anybody that wakes up in the morning and goes, right, I'm gonna be difficult today, that's it, I'm a difficult person. It's not. It's really not. There's a reason. It's a bit like my children, to be honest, who get angry over something that seems to me completely irrational, but there's always a reason to why. There really is. So I think it's just being curious. Just so saying, oh, I saw that you turned up in that meeting in that way, or what's, you know, something going on, you're not talking to yourself, or tell me about yourself, you know, what's, Just be curious again, take that mask off. People don't, there's always a reason. They could be something in their personal life. They could be feeling a crunch. Again, we don't know everything that's going on in the business. There could be a serious crunch in the part of the business and that person feels under threat. So they are, you know, like a bulge that is turning up somewhere else and there's some fear there or there's pressure they're getting. So just Just really be curious and keep that human to human connection and just approach it in that way. People don't wake up to be difficult. They really don't. There's a reason to do that. In terms of sexism, that's not okay in today's world at all. And if you are experiencing that, then again, be brave, give feedback. That's another thing as well that starts to create toxic cultures within companies is when there isn't a feedback culture. Some people that might not even realize what they've said or done that has been then taken in that way. So I know it's hard, I know it really is, but do ask for a coffee and share how whatever happened made you feel. and just have that one-to-one conversation. I would suggest you do it outside of the workplace so it's not seen as a meeting. Just ask to go for coffee or coffee and a walk. Walk's always good. And just have a conversation. Just have that conversation with them.

Jill Cross

Yeah, I think that is really great advice, Vicki. In addition, when we're all in situations where you overhear something or it's just like the tone is just not hitting right. And we are really encouraged in our workplace to be upstanders, not bystanders. And sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it can help deflate a situation when you have someone in the room where that tone or sexism or whatever is not directly on you, but you're kind of seeing it play out and you step in and say, Hey, what's going on here? Like, how can I help? You know, to start to address it, being an upstander, diffuse the situation. And so if you are feeling like you're the person that's, you know, kind of that behavior is being directed at, speak to someone around you. So either your leader or your peers that might be in settings around you can also kind of be tuned into it and then help, kind of be an upstander in that situation for you. So I think kind of, bringing in a little bit of a support system is really important there as well.

Kari Wiens

Cheryl, Michelle, anything you want to add?

Michelle Frantino

I'll back everything that Vicky and Jill said. I think, so much of the time, going back to the sexism bit, we may feel something and it's actually not intentional, right? But it feels... off, right? And, you know, I've for many years have had male bosses and have worked in supporting sales folks that have been more male in numbers versus females. And oftentimes, that's alienating. It is, right? And it's not intentional, right? But it feels not right. And sometimes within that there's a tone that is different, right? I think there is a different female tone, sometimes it's just what we can relate to, right? But my advice to anyone who may be feeling that and resonating with what I'm saying is to be confident in who you are. And when you need somebody to know that may not understand or have the intuition to know how to speak to you or how to relate to you, tell them, tell them, right? Because you're reporting to them for a reason. They do care, right? But sometimes there's the broader situation that we live different lives, that things may just be different in our day to days, right? But tell them, use your voice, right? And so much of the time for me, that has helped me to cut through, right? Be confident in who you are. Be confident in the fact that the organization has placed you where you are, right, to contribute regardless of sex and gender and whatnot, right? So be true to who you are and what you're feeling and be vocal about it as well. The organization wants you to, and the person on the other side does too, we're oftentimes in our heads. ads telling us not to, but that's the, that's the hill to get over.

Kari Wiens

Well said, Charlotte, I saw you go on off mute real quick. Did you want to get a last word in?

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Well, I mean, regarding this last question, you know, we do probably take these code of conduct trainings every year and people they're like, oh, it's the time of the year, you know, and it but you know what, they are there for a reason. And they have in silence actually empowered me. I have never used it. But it's really nice to know that everybody is taking that code of conduct. So when people moan about it, I I stand up for code of contact. That's all.

Kari Wiens

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you all so much. We're going to go ahead and close the session today, but really appreciate you sharing all of your experiences and your honesty today. And to our audience, if there are other questions that you want to send through, I'm sure these ladies would be happy to answer them separately. And we're looking forward to this continued series.

Charlotte Aspeheim Schmidt

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.