Season 6, Episode 2: Joe Taiano, CMO at RSM US LLP: Business fluency, being understood, and change

 Ali
Joe, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Joe 
Hey Ali, thanks for having me.

Ali 
So to begin with, I'd love to find out a little bit about what shaped who you are as a person. So let's start. Can you tell me a storey from your childhood that has shaped who you are today?

Joe 
Oh, we're starting deep. Okay. What has shaped me from my childhood? So I grew up in very modest beginnings. So my dad was a sanitation worker. My mum was a secretary. At that time, they were called secretaries. Today, executive assistants. But if you were to ask my mum, she would proudly say she was a secretary back in the day. I grew up in Queens, New York. When I was 9 months old, my dad was diagnosed with testicular cancer. And so he had to stop working, and he did not really have an education. So he had dropped out of high school when he was younger. And so that really shaped who I was. 'Cause I grew up in an environment in the '80s where my father basically stayed home with us and he and my mum made the decision that she would go to work 'cause she could make more money as an executive assistant or as a secretary than, than he could working odd jobs. So I grew up with this mindset of my father always telling me and my brother and my sister to not let what happened to him happen to us, and that an education is paramount because no one could ever take that away, right?

Joe
So your health and your education are two things that really shaped me and motivated me throughout my life and my career. So I've always been an overachiever. I've always worked incredibly hard because I always had that mindset in the back of my head.

Ali 
I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for your parents, but what a phenomenally positive and productive response to a very difficult situation to take a challenge like that and use it as fuel for your children's future. It's a phenomenal way of responding to that, really.

Joe
I also think it's impacted how I am as a leader, right? Because my father grew up with a lot of shame in terms of, you know, the ability to raise a family and, and not being the breadwinner. And so also the way that he was treated, right? So he was a sanitation worker. My mum was an executive assistant. And so some of the storeys that they told me, you know, my mum in her office having to get a cup of coffee for her boss or needing to sharpen pencils and just, you know, there, there was a saying that my dad hated that people use all the time, and I'm always cautious not to use it, but it's this saying that I treat everybody the same, whether they're the CEO or the janitor. And there's no ill intent behind that, uh, behind that quote. But to my father, it, it just, it was horrific 'cause he felt like, gee, I am the bottom of the totem pole, right? As a sanitation worker, you know, I am the lowest of the low in terms of jobs. And so that's always really shaped my perspective in terms of how I treat people, in terms of how I lead.

Joe 
You know, everyone is a key player. No one is better than the other. And so that's just, uh, That was really shaped by my upbringing.

Ali 
It's amazing to hear the incredibly positive things that, that come out of adversity for people. We've, we've heard a couple of storeys of a similar arc this season already. Do you have memories of how New York in the '80s felt?

Joe
Yeah, I mean, I do. So as a kid, my mum worked in the World Trade Centre, and so she used to take me as a kid. Yeah, I have fond memories of the World Trade Centre. It was actually my first job. So I worked in the ballroom at the World Trade Centre when I was in high school. And so I just remember, you know, being, you know, 7 or 8 years old and being on, you know, the 90th floor of the World Trade Centre and just, you know, going up against the windows and, and looking at, you know, the cabs and the cars looking like little matchbox cars. And just, you know, there was just a vibe in the city, you know, in the '80s. Not that I think graffiti's pretty, but it's had its moment. It had its moment in the city, definitely in the '80s and the '90s.

Ali 
Do you think it shaped your appreciation or the way you think about creativity growing up in a city like that? Obviously you mentioned the graffiti, but there was a kind of a liveliness of things that were going on then.

Joe
There is, and I'm a native New Yorker, so it's the environment that I grew up in. And I just think the diversity of the people in New York City, the ability to just kind of be free and who you are definitely shaped, I think, my personality, my creativity, my ability to empathise with other people from all different walks of life, uh, I definitely think was shaped by being a native New Yorker.

Ali 
So obviously your parents have had a huge influence on your life, your family, the place you grew up, New York, it sounds like is still a huge influence on your life. Um, have there been any other really kind of significant influences that have shaped who you are?

Joe
Well, I mean, I think, you know, being gay has definitely shaped who I am and how I think, you know, it's one aspect of who I am. It's not the only aspect. But it certainly had an impact on how I think growing up and feeling different. You know, when you're really young and you just kind of don't know what this thing is, you kind of question yourself, you know, why am I different? Why do I have certain feelings? So I've always been a very deep thinker. I was always mature for my age. And I think, you know, just being gay has shaped that because I think when you grow up feeling different, you're very, at least I was very introspective. And asking questions of why and thinking very deeply about things. And that just kind of shaped all areas of my life.

Ali
Interesting. That sense of being slightly different is something I had in a slightly different way that, you know, I was always kind of slightly brown-skinned essentially. And that always felt a little bit different from the kids around me. If you were to have a conversation with yourself at a young age, when you're kind of going through some of this developing who you are as a human being, what would you have loved to have said to yourself back then?

Joe
Oh gosh. I mean, what other people think doesn't matter. You know, we spend so much time, particularly in our youth, focused on what other people are gonna think or what other people are gonna say. And I think for me, that held me back in some aspects of my life because I worried so much. And maybe that also contributes to me being a marketer, right? Because being, you know, in marketing is all about perception. And so that's just something that I, you know, struggled with early on in terms of managing my perception. Maybe some of that comes from being gay, but you know, you always have to kind of have this mask when you're young and when you're not out. And so other people's perception are always front and centre and can keep you, can hold you back if you let it.

Ali 
Do you remember any, any particular brands or books or music or film back then that have stuck with you?

Joe 
You know, it's funny because now I'm the CMO of RSM and one of our clients is Equinox, and I just did an ad for Equinox and actually just listened to a podcast for the chief— I think it was the chief growth officer of Equinox talking about the history of the brand. And I remember, you know, growing up in the '90s in New York City, to your point earlier, and just, you know, looking at Equinox and thinking, gosh, one day I want to be a member. Like it was a status symbol and it was a flex. And it's funny because I was watching the, like the highest rating miniseries on Hulu this year has been the JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette story. And there's one scene in that movie where he's at the gym and, you know, one of the workers comes in 'cause he has a call and he has to go, but it was an Equinox that he was working out in. And That was always a brand that really spoke to me, one in terms of fitness and health, which I also think comes back to my childhood of my dad of trying to be healthy and fitness is a thing of mine.

Joe 
But also it was a brand that really encouraged you to be yourself and push your limits. And it still does today. And I'll never forget when I actually did become a member, it was this proud moment of, wow, I could be an Equinox member now. I could afford Equinox. So that was always a brand that spoke to me.

Ali 
That's really lovely. Were you quite active as a child? Were there any pastimes, exercising or otherwise, that you spent a lot of time doing to keep yourself sane?

Joe 
I was not a big sports person. I think I was kind of a homebody. I loved TV and I loved media, which is probably why I found my way into marketing. So anything that was related you know, to acting or movies or television. I'm the kid that sat in front of the TV for probably 8 hours a day and should have spent more time outside playing sports. But I think that also fueled my creativity.

Ali 
I'm sure. Yeah. What were the shows that you loved back then then?

Joe 
Oh God, I miss all those shows from the '90s. Like the, I feel like the sitcom has died, but I mean, back in the day it was, you know, Growing Pains and Who's the Boss? And Mr. Belvedere and Saved by the Bell, the Saturday morning shows too. All of that stuff.

Ali 
Yeah. Yeah. I have very fond memories of Saved by the Bell. I definitely made it over to the UK back then as well. And are there any things that you did as a relatively young person? What are the things that you're kind of really proud of doing? Are there any achievements in kind of the first half of your life, if you like?

Joe 
My brother and I were the first in our family to graduate college. So that was a, a big milestone for me. I also, I went to Pace University in downtown Manhattan, and so my college experience was a little bit different than probably your, your average person. So, you know, Pace University in downtown Manhattan had a fantastic co-op programme, meaning internships for their students. And so particularly in your junior and senior years, they geared classes to be at night. So at that time, you know, again, we're talking late '90s, I would actually go to school in a suit. So while, while other people were living at the dorm and sort of going to class in sweatpants, my first job was at the related companies, now owner of Equinox, funny enough. And I would work, you know, at least 20, 25 hours a week from like 9 to 5. And then I'd go to school from like 6 to 9 or from 5 to 9. And that was just the way, you know, the way of life at that school. So I didn't realise it at the time, but I look back on that and I'm very proud of it because I think that really built the foundation for my career.

Ali 
It sounds like a phenomenally mature work ethic. Is that something you carry with you today?

Joe 
It is. Like I said, it goes back to kind of stemming from childhood. And I think, you know, that's just the way that I was raised and how I am. I think I'm a hard worker. I expect a lot from those around me, but I'm probably hardest on myself.

Ali 
Amazing. Just a couple of last questions then to understand. Thank you. You covered so much ground as well and you shared so generously. Is there anything that you believe today, perhaps still, that goes against common wisdom? So something, the kind of thing that you might share at a conversation with friends and like, oh no, I don't think that at all. Or, oh, Really, you know, kind of makes them lean in. Is there anything you think the majority of the world might not be getting quite right?

Joe 
Well, I think that there is such a focus on social media and influencers, right? And just the amount of connexions that people have. And so I can't imagine, you know, going back to childhood, thank goodness I didn't have social media. So I think people, not everyone, but people determine their worth by the number of followers or connexions that they have today. And they're not really— it's funny that they call them connexions because they're not really connexions, right? 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 connexions. I think there's a false sense of relationships today and people are living their lives online rather than in real life. And so while we might be more connected than ever with technology, I think we've lost something.

Ali 
I think it's such a an interesting point, one I'm slightly obsessed with as a kind of recovering linguist. There's this idea of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. So essentially it goes that the words you use and the words you have access to determine the way that you see reality. And there's kind of gradations of that, right? For example, some cultures have many more words for different shades of colours. And so have been shown to probably be able to recognise more shades of colours to distinguish between them because they have more words for them, for example. And that point you made there about connexions, I think One of the interesting discrepancies I see, I mean, all sorts of ramifications that are quite hard to track and measure, is that language very rarely keeps up with the rate of progress of technology. So there is a level at which language can change from day to day, absolutely, and it is constantly evolving. But at the same time, new technologies come along, and so maybe it's social media, and maybe someone uses the word connexions, and suddenly all the meaning that is loaded into that word previously, that kind of gets carried into this ultimately new thing or this new idea.

Ali 
And as a result, you know, we carry all that baggage, that meaning baggage with us into this new thing. And funnily enough, I think the same thing is happening to some extent, arguably, with artificial intelligence. I'm actually bullish on it, and we're not going to talk loads about artificial intelligence in this part of the conversation. But actually, the word intelligence obviously is a subject of hot debate right now amongst a lot of the community. You know, I don't think people are debating its usefulness so much, but actually, you know, what is definition of the word intelligence. Obviously, it was very poorly defined before AI came along, even in terms of human intelligence. And that kind of hand-wavy, very vague definition has then been stretched even further by the technologies that we now have today. So I just think it's such a great point. You use the word connexions for something, what do people perceive it as and what actually does it really really meets them in reality.

Joe 
It's interesting that you use the word language because I think if, if we focus more on our language and our words versus our appearance and our looks, we'd be living in a much different society, right? I think social media has trained us with all of the philtres, you know, everything has to, and again, I'm a marketer, right? So I understand the need and the desire around perception, but I feel like the looks And the visual has overtaken the words and the language.

Ali 
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it reminds me of a conversation I had with a CTO at a large enterprise tech firm. And we were talking about, this was a few years ago, talking about what might happen. They were developing a series of avatars you could use on video calls, more as an experiment, kind of internal research experiment than anything else. We were discussing the impact that would have if I turn up to the call as Hulk Hogan or whoever, then you'd probably perceive everything I say and who I am as a very, very different experience than a than as I am. I'm not quite as muscly. So just to kind of round off this first part of the conversation then, if you were to offer advice to people who are maybe kind of 15, 16, potentially thinking of going into marketing today, is there something you would say to them that might help them through the next few years?

Joe 
Oh gosh, take every opportunity that you can. You know, I know it sounds cliché to follow your passion, but one, I would question, you know, why marketing? What is it about marketing that speaks to you? Have as many conversations as you can with people that you know are in the business community. Stay curious, right? Ask a lot of questions. I think the best thing I ever did was have an internship in college. You get the real-world experience and, you know, we'll talk later on about my work experience, but there is a difference between going to school and actually, you know, going into an office in the workplace. And so I think getting that real-life experience as young as you possibly can, it's It's so important.

Ali
Chaos in B2B marketing is not just frustrating, it's expensive. TMP's latest research shows it could be costing organisations up to 15% of potential revenue and extending sales cycles by 30%. Want to see what chaos is really costing your team? Visit tmp.com. B2b.com/cost-of-chaos. If we segue now into a little bit more around your marketing career, how did you first get into marketing?

Joe 
Oh God, so that's an interesting story. So that dovetails nicely, uh, with the advice for, uh, for young people today. I actually started my career as an auditor and a CPA.

Ali 
Oh, I'm so sorry.

Joe 
I know, I know. It's funny because I've had people in my career say, don't tell people that, but it's actually been my superpower. It's all, it's actually been my differentiator. So I graduated from, from university with a public accounting degree. I was an auditor for the first 2 years of my life until I got my CPA. But it goes back to saying, you know, being in school and actually doing the job are 2 separate things. And so I, I learned early on as an auditor that this was not the life that I wanted. It was not my passion, even though I had gone to school 4 years for it and sat for a gruelling 16-hour CPA exam. And so again, it goes back to the point I made of take whatever opportunities you can, because when you're an auditor and it's not busy season, you get staffed on any number of projects. And so at the accounting firm that I was at, I got staffed on a marketing project. When it was busy season. And I'll never forget being staffed on the project and them saying to me, oh, you know, you're going to work on such and such a project in the marketing department and thinking, we have a marketing department?

Joe 
What do they do? Like, I didn't even realise, you know, that they had a marketing department. And it was like a telemarketing programme during the dot-com boom where we were giving awards to a lot of startups to kind of build the business and and the technology and, and the, uh, internet age. And I fell in love with it. And so I kept getting staffed or asking to get staffed on marketing projects when I wasn't busy doing audit. And I was able to parlay that into a full-time marketing role, really without any experience other than the experience I was getting on the job. And I had looked for open positions at the company that I was in. I went to HR, I made my pitch, She gave me the opportunity to interview with the marketing leader at the time. And I said, who better to market our services than someone who's actually done the work? And she said, ah, you know what, I'm going to give you a shot. And the rest is history. But that goes back to the point of, you know, in marketing, you really have to understand, particularly in B2B, the business that you're in.

Joe
And so a lot of people think it's odd that I went from audit into marketing, right? But I will, I wouldn't trade it for the world because having a public accounting degree really gave me a fantastic foundation for business and understanding how to read a P&L, you know, how to look at a balance sheet, understanding what drives revenue, which are all factors in a good, you know, CMO or marketer today.

Ali 
Can I dig into that a little bit further? Actually, I mean, there's lots I'd love to dig into further in that, but particularly that last point you made around the background as in order to give you a good understanding of how finance and business works. What are the sorts of mistakes that you see marketers make when they're trying to, say, discuss budget or trying to sell an idea into the CFO, for example?

Joe
Not having confidence. Ah. People can smell it a mile away. If you're unsure, coming from the background and the companies that I worked in, you'll get eaten alive. So you always want to know your numbers, practise, not know it on a surface level, but really understand what you're talking about. I mean, there's so many marketers that feel, you know, the CFO should speak the language of a marketer, and I say no, like you have to speak the language of business. You have to learn the language of business. And so if you're not confident, if you can't back your numbers, if you're not going in with insights and data, you've lost before you've walked through the door.

Ali 
What are the sorts of metrics or the sorts of data that you found useful? And I appreciate a lot of it might be quite situation specific.

Joe 
So to me, I always try to lean on hard data in terms of what are gonna be revenue drivers, right? So I know that people talk a lot about vanity metrics with impressions and eyeballs and views, and all of that stuff is important. But at the end of the day, what's going to drive the business? And so, you know, that could be a little bit harder to measure in marketing, but it's just something that you have to figure out whether that's having an event and being incredibly regimented about the follow-ups that happen from the relationships that were built at that event. You know, one of the things that I'm learning at RSM is we have a really strong demand gen function, and I can walk into a room and say, you know, we influenced or can directly relate 25% of this firm's revenue. To our marketing programmes. And so that's a really powerful statement. And those are things that we can track, right? Those are forms that are filled out on our website, those are leads that we get through our advertising. So anything that I could relate, you know, to revenue and things that drive the business is paramount.

Ali 
That's a very interesting point as well. And one that's maybe skipped sometimes in this conversation about how marketers can show their value, whether it's to the CFO, CEO, or the rest of the business, that actually a lot of the time you're looking at, oh, you know, kind of clever attribution pipeline and trying to reconfigure the systems to make sense of some numbers. But actually, sometimes it comes down to what are the capabilities that you have as a firm, what's mature, rather than trying to find, really dig out and carve out metrics that then make sense. You know, if the fundamentals aren't there, then maybe you have to take a slightly different approach.

Joe
Yeah, before even starting any programme, you have to think about what are the KPIs of success, right? So often, you know, we go into programmes or work on campaigns and then think of, you know, Did it do well or not? And you're figuring out the KPIs at the end versus what does success look like in the beginning?

Ali
Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the things I love doing with clients, building success ladders early on. You know, what is in 12 months' time, what is gonna be the success metrics and the swagger storeys that we take to the rest of the business? And so I did wanna just, one of the things you said early on though was you got involved in a kind of almost a telemarketing programme and that's what sparked your love of marketing. So can you just tell me a little bit more about what was it you loved about it?

Joe
I have always loved connecting with people. So as much as I'm an introvert, and I think people think that I'm an extrovert, I do love connecting with people and helping people. That's really been sort of the through line throughout my life is trying my best to help people. And so at that time, I think what really spoke to me about that programme, it was called the Technology Fast 50 programme. And it was working with startups. So companies that did not have a lot of money that were just trying to make a name for themselves. And basically we did this programme where we would send out basically a form for people to fill out to apply to be in this, in this awards programme. And we awarded, you know, what we felt were the top 50 fastest growing startups and just the excitement by these founders who, you know, remember this is the startup intranet age. You know, these are companies, 4 or 5 people that were just taking risks and, and trying to make a name for themselves. And to give them an award, you know, by a top professional services firm was a very big deal for them.

Joe
And I think for me, that's what really drew me to marketing is being able to give others, you know, recognition and a platform for their businesses. So that, that was a, that was a really impactful first foray into marketing for me.

Ali 
Okay, thank you. And I want to fast forward now a little bit to where you are today. Obviously, you've recently taken on the Chief Marketing Officer role at RSM. First of all, can you tell me a little bit about who RSM are and what you do?

Joe
Yeah, so RSM is the leading provider of assurance, tax, and consulting services for the middle market. We define the middle market as companies that range between $30 million and $10 billion. So we're a middle market company ourselves. So I always say we are the middle market, we serve the middle market. Um, we are coming up on our 100-year anniversary as a firm, uh, within the next month. We're very excited about that. Yeah. And so I've been in the chair now as CMO for the last 4 or 5 months. Um, and I'm really excited to be building the brand. It's a fantastic company.

Ali 
One of the things you said there obviously is the mid-market segment you define, define between 30 million and 10 million. I know, I think there is actually a little kind of a Christmas gift ready to be made for marketers there about different definitions of, of mid-market and what it means from one firm to another. That is a very broad segment, even though it is tightly defined, still a relatively broad segment. Is that also very much global, international? Any markets you don't cover?

Joe
It's global. So we operate in 120 countries and sort of going back to this middle market, you know, and how we define it. I mean, truly it's the backbone of the economy. These are the companies that really are the backbone of the economy. And it goes back to my foray with the technology Fast Victi, right? And not that they're startups, But again, it's helping these companies who, you know, may not have the means of the Fortune 500, but still they're the ones that are driving the economy and need the assistance and the help that a company like RSM can provide.

Ali 
Tell me a little bit about the buyer journey then of these companies and how that influences marketing's role at RSM.

Joe
So traditionally, you know, where I come from, the client journey is built on relationships and it's no different at RSM. I mean, at the end of the day, sometimes people think that B2B is marketing to businesses, but at the end of the day, you're marketing to people. And so, you know, at RSM, we really pride ourselves on our culture. And so our brand promise is the power of being understood. And I think that's such a beautiful brand promise, and that really spoke to me, and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to come to RSM, because we really start the journey with understanding versus trying to sell a solution. And I think that's what companies in the oil market are really looking for., you know, a lot of the really big players are going in with a solution that, you know, they've applied to the Fortune 500. That's not gonna work for a mid-market company, right? And so just taking the time to understand the real issue that they're having and understand how we can tailor a solution and work with them versus plugging in a pre-made solution, I think is really important to our clients.

Joe 
And, you know, the power of being understood, that brand promise actually came from our clients. Because they told us that we ask more questions and better questions than the competition. And so that's really meaningful to get that type of feedback from our client because you're in it with them, right? You're not just a provider or a vendor, right? You're an extended part of their team. And that's what we pride ourselves on in terms of the client journey.

Ali 
That's fantastic, isn't it? And it's so many of the strongest brand positions really do come from customers first, obviously.

Joe
Yeah.

Ali 
One of the things you mentioned there was that serving this market, they want to be understood. They are all different businesses. I think that touched on a meta theme there, which is when you are a very large company, you can afford to invest quite a lot of money and capital into customising things to make things work for you. And everyone selling to you is willing to invest a lot of time, resource, capital in making things work for you as well. And there is a level of customization there. Whereas when you get to slightly smaller companies, obviously some of the companies used to have a still very, very large companies in many ways. But when you do get slightly smaller companies, that ability to customise probably does traditionally reduce, certainly in terms of the more kind of tech-flavored offerings that companies can sell to them. It seems to me like that's one of the things that might change a little bit with the advent of AI, the ability to customise your services, your solutions a little bit more to what fits you as a business. Is that something you're beginning to see a little bit, or you could see perhaps over the next few years?

Joe 
Oh, absolutely. I mean, AI is reshaping everything and AI is built into all of our, you know, offerings and solutions. It's, it's just changing the way that business is being run today. And I think some of the challenges that midsize businesses are having, particularly with AI, are different because to your point, they just, they don't have the capital or the luxury. I mean, I'm saying big companies are wasting money, but they just don't have that ability. So they're looking for a partner that they can trust again, going back to the power of being understood, who actually understands their business and is invested in their success, you know, whether that is around an assurance capability, whether that is around a tax capability, whether that is, you know, any, any number of our consulting services. It's about really understanding the need, not just the tech, because if you understand the need first, you know, the answer can be, you know, have some sort of tech solution to it, but it's not always technology. Absolutely.

Ali 
And one of the places you worked previously, obviously for quite some time, was Accenture, which is obviously an enormously well-known global organisation. How is RSM different to Accenture?

Joe
So I would say there's a couple of differences and there's a lot of similarities actually. So I mean, obviously the most glaring difference is Accenture isn't an assurance or tax provider, right? They're a pure consulting firm. So that's one major difference. You know, I think also the size of the companies and the companies that they, that they serve. But there's a lot of similarities that I see between Accenture and RSM. So what drew me to RSM is the entrepreneurial spirit, you know, and the ability to take risks, which was very much the case of Accenture when I had joined there, you know, over 20 years ago. There comes a time when you become so big that you really can't take the same leaps or the same risks. And so I think we're at a time at RFM where we are growing the brand. It's one of the reasons why I was brought in, you know, the level of trust that they've put in me and their willingness to change and to evolve and build the brand really spoke to me. And that reminded me very much of, you know, the Tiger Woods days of Accenture when they had first launched the brand and the amount of time and investment that they put into the foundation of that brand.

Ali 
Very interesting. And actually, I'm sure a lot of people probably obviously, having not experienced Accenture back then, various previous forms of it would probably, that probably sounds like an almost strange storey to a lot of people knowing the behemoth that it is today. So your team then that you have at RSM, How do you go about organising it? You know, who's in it? How do you think about shaping it to create the most effective function you can?

Joe
Yeah, it's a great question and I'm actually in the midst of shaping that as we speak. So like I said, I'm, I'm a little over 4 months into the role. I think the operating model is paramount. I mean, I've been through, gosh, at least 3 marketing transformations in the last 5 or 6 years. And so the way that I go about it, or the way that I'm looking to organise my team, particularly in the era of AI, which I know to some people is scary, is most people will go in and they will look at an org chart and they will understand what people are good at, and then they kind of move the deck chairs based on, you know, people's capabilities and, and what they think an org chart should look like. Uh, for me, it's opposite. And it's actually kind of fun when you don't really know everybody and you're new to the job because it's less about the people and their capabilities right now. It's more about what is the work that we're being asked to be done, right? So that's first and foremost is what is the work we're asked to be done today and what's that work that we think we're going to be asked in the future, right?

Joe 
And then the second layer of that is how is that work being done today, right? So what is the processes, procedures, what's the workflows that are happening today to get that work done? Right. And if you could solve those two things, right, what is the work that we're being asked? And then how is that work getting done? The last thing I work on is the org chart, right? Because based on the work we're being asked and how it's getting done, then you start to look at what is the talent that I need, right? What are the roles that I need to make all of that happen? And that's inclusive of things like automation and AI, you know, where can we automate certain processes? Where do we need more strategic thinking and the humans behind it? That's the process that I'm in right now.

Ali
I love that as an approach. It makes a lot of sense to me. And again, something I'd absolutely advise clients around, starting with the purpose of, and purpose not in the Eden Leaver 2012 kind of a sense, but purpose as in the very direct, what is needed from you as an organisation today and in the next door function today and in the next 2 years or 3 years. And do you think that there is going to be a shift in the way that marketing works with the rest of the organisation as well? Because I think a lot of people, obviously their remit, a lot of CMOs' remit is the marketing function, of course. But I wonder sometimes about the extent to which the interdependencies between marketing and the rest of the organisation are going to change as well over the next few years.

Joe
I don't know if it will change or if people will just be more aware that marketing is such a connector throughout the organisation. It always has been. It always should be. So, you know, in the role that I sit in, I am working as much with HR, right? And change management and finance and all of the other functions and legal, uh, on a daily basis, right? And so the nice thing about sitting in the marketing seat is sometimes those areas of the business don't speak to each other or don't know what's going on. And so I think one of the really important roles that marketing plays is the connector. I see something here, I see something, hey, you guys speaking, we're being asked to do this here, you guys are doing that there. And so, I think that's critical. Yeah.

Ali 
And that really rings true. I think one of the things that we see is there are many forces pulling teams and organisations apart at the moment, leading to a lot of fragmentation, whether it's a proliferation of channels or whether it is a proliferation of regions and individual regulations in each of those regions. Or audiences, segments, what, you know, buyer journeys themselves become elongated, all of these things, many, many more people involved in them. Are there things that you've seen or done yourself over the past couple of years, or that maybe you're planning to do in the next couple of years, that help you to create a more coherent marketing or revenue function?

Joe 
So I hate silos. I would say I'm a silo buster. Whenever I see a silo, it drives me nuts. I mean, they just, they naturally exist. But that's sort of one of my pet peeves is just pick up the phone, right? And, and call someone, or if you're doing something alone, you're doing it wrong. So just trying to build collaboration into everything that we do. And I think sometimes people confuse collaboration with consensus. Not saying we have to be consensus-driven because then I think you go slow. At the end of the day, one person needs to be accountable for making a decision. That doesn't mean that you can't take an input and collaborate, but I think that there is this one or the other. You have to be consensus-driven or you, you know, you yourself just have to go it alone. And that's That's not the case. So I think that's a really important point is not to confuse collaboration versus consensus.

Ali 
Absolutely. Yeah. It's an art. It isn't simply a follow the rules and agree on everything. Do you have any other influences or inspiration for how you approach marketing? Any particular heroes, people you've worked with, things you've read, anything else that's really influenced how you think about marketing as a discipline?

Joe
I mean, I think it's a really exciting time to be in marketing because I think it has evolved from a role that was just viewed as a cost function to being a revenue driver. You know, back to the point, you know, that I said earlier, it's as much about demand as it is about brand and how those two things work together. So in the role at RSM, you know, I work very closely with sales. You know, we have a very strong demand generation team, but as well, I'm empowered to really build the brand. Right. And so that's what's exciting me every day right now as a marketer is having the business view, as we talked about, understanding like how we're trying to achieve growth at the enterprise level, but having a strong point of view of what can be marketing's role to fuel that and play in that. And I think what I love about RSM is I've given, I've been given that seat at the table because One, I understand the business because I've done it, right? It goes back to me being the 22-year-old making the case for why I can go into marketing.

Joe
But also, I now have sort of the close to 30 years of experience marketing in B2B. So it's a very unique skill set that I just, I love being able to play with every day.

Ali
Yeah, that is very, very refreshing and lovely to hear. And I agree, I think it's an incredibly exciting time to be in marketing. It is a lot of focus on the fact that it's challenging at the moment as well, but I agree, it's also extremely exciting. We both have those things at at the same time. Do you have any particular tips that you've learned, do you think, that could help aspiring CMOs?

Joe
Oh gosh, just make time for yourself. So I've always sort of been hybrid, kind of, you know, working virtually and working in office. I mean, been doing it for, you know, over 20 years, and I think COVID shifted the, you know, the rest of the world caught up. But that being said, I just think people are so back to back. In terms of meetings. And I think in a creative function like marketing, you have to have time to think and strategize away from the computer. And I think sometimes people feel guilty about, you know, taking a walk in the middle of the day, or for me, it's going to the gym and just, I always say my best ideas are born on the treadmill. I can't be creative sitting in front of my laptop. And so just creating that space for yourself, whatever it is. You know, to get out of the four walls of your office space, whether that's your home or an actual literal office, um, and to spend some time in nature doing the things that fuels you, because that's what's going to help you with the creative aspects of the job.

Ali
Sounds like you've just written the line for Equinox as well there. I have my best ideas on treadmill. Do you have any words of advice for agencies as well? Anything that you love them doing more of, less of?

Joe 
I mean, I've worked with so many agencies throughout the course of my career, right? Different types of agencies, design agencies, ad agencies, different types of creative agencies, and some have been spectacular additions to my team. So when we talk about sort of the operating model, obviously agency partnerships are a big part of that in terms of who we partner. My advice is really kind of goes back to RSM's brand promise. Understand the business that you're serving. Because I've had so many agencies that just want to do creative work, but it's not in service of the brand and what we do. And so again, it goes back to this, this, this balance of business and creative. Every agency has to really understand the business that they're serving and how that creative can be applied differently for a professional services firm versus a CPG firm., you know, versus, you know, a travel resort. Just know the business that you're serving.

Ali
Thank you. If it's okay, then we'll just finish with a quickfire round.

Joe
Oh, fun. I love fire rounds.

Ali 
Okay, good. Well, the questions that probably deserve longer answers, but we ask you to keep them short, if that's okay.

Joe
Okay.

Ali 
A lot of people break that rule, by the way, but please, yeah, do your best. So quickfire round. First of all, complete the sentence: The qualities I look for in my next exceptional hire are Personality. Very good. Thank you. I often say the only problems that worry me are the ones I can't see. So I try to open my team about challenges I have, mistakes that I make to create a space where they're comfortable doing the same. In the spirit of psychological safety, what's a mistake that you've made in the past couple of weeks?

Joe 
I left a meeting early.

Ali 
Very good. Thank you. What's something that most people get wrong about you?

Joe 
That I'm an extrovert.

Ali 
What are the 3 technologies you're most excited about over the next 10 years?

Joe 
I mean, obviously AI, which is a boring answer because everyone will say that. I still have yet to ride in a Waymo, you know, the driverless car. Oh really?

Ali 
Oh, I would highly recommend it. It's a fantastic experience, although not during floods apparently.

Joe 
Yeah, I'm really interested in getting in a Waymo and I'm really interested in where robotics is going, right? So I was seeing a news segment the other day of You know, I think it was in Japan, like these actual robots that look like humans that are doing human tasks, whether that's like cleaning your apartment or cooking for you. So yeah, I look forward to the day of having a robot clean my apartment.

Ali 
Yes, so do I. And finally, what is one piece of advice or one idea either about marketing or about life in general that you keep coming back to?

Joe
Nothing changes if nothing changes. I mean, if those aren't words to live by, I don't know what else is because the only constant in life is change and most people try to avoid it. So I just say embrace it. Change isn't always bad, right? Change for the positive.

Ali 
What a beautifully optimistic note to end on. Thanks, Joe. Well, thank you so much for being with us today.

Joe 
Thanks for having me. This was fun.