On this episode of How to Grow a CMO, host Alastair Hussain is joined by Erin Gabrielson, CMO of Americas at IBM.
Erin’s path to marketing leadership was shaped as much by team sports and family values as it was by her corporate career. In their conversation, she reflects on the lessons she learned growing up on sports teams, the importance of leading with kindness and how an early job in an ice cream shop taught her the value of loyalty and customer relationships.
They also discuss the changing role of the modern CMO, why coherence across teams is essential for unlocking the potential of AI, and how marketing leaders must increasingly act as strategists, systems designers, and coaches. Erin also shares how being diagnosed with breast cancer at a young age gave her a powerful sense of perspective, without allowing it to define who she is.
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Ali
Erin, thank you so much for joining us today.
Erin
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
Ali
Thank you. Well, the first thing I'd like to do is to get to know who you are as a person, what's shaped you into the person that you are today. So to kick things off, could you tell me a storey from your childhood that has shaped the person you are today?
Erin
I think it's a theme and not necessarily a story. But I was really into team sports as a child, and I think it taught me a lot about how to work with people, how to communicate, how to be focused and disciplined and have fun along the way too, how to be a player and sometimes a coach, you know, throughout the years when I was a captain. And so I think not necessarily a story, but a theme around the importance of team sports, I think, for children and how important it was in shaping who I am today, how I lead a team, how I parent, how I communicate with, with people, with my husband, with my parents, with, with peers at work, with my kids. And I really can't speak enough about the importance of team sports for me and also how I think about my children as well.
Ali
Makes me think there might be an interesting sociological experiment where you take children who have grown up predominantly playing individual sports versus those predominantly playing team sports and see what happens to them the rest of their life. I'm sure there's a little bit of a cause and effect thing going on there, but it could be interesting.
Erin
Yeah. Confidence is another thing, especially in girls. Important for boys too, but especially, I think, important for girls.
Ali
And what were the team sports you were playing then? You said you captained a few.
Erin
Soccer and basketball were my two, but it was a different time. We didn't, you know, play multiple sports every single season like some of the kids do today. There was a soccer season for me and there was a basketball season, and my spring season was free.
Ali
And do you still play some of those sports now?
Erin
I don't. I wish I did. Now for me, actually, it's funny, I have switched to running. Which is funny because it's individual and it's really a time for me to be mentally with myself. And it didn't really actually dawn on me until this moment, the shift from a more of a team atmosphere to more of an individualised sport, which I find to be very therapeutic for me these days. But I watch a lot of team sports with my children.
Ali
Very good. I get in trouble watching team sports with my children 'cause I'm still quite vociferous and get slightly overexcited. Excited. I remember the World Cup final a couple of years ago, they actually had to leave the room though. Oh God, Daddy's getting very shouty.
Erin
Well, you got to mentally prepare yourself for this summer then with the World Cup coming to North America.
Ali
Oh yeah, I have. I've grown up so much in the last 2 years. Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. Are you going to get to go and see any matches, do you think?
Erin
We'll see. We'll see. We're hosting some clients, so yeah, we'll see.
Ali
Very cool. And is that, was that, do you think, a big part of not just who you were when you were growing up, but also how much did it shape, you know, the kind of role that you wanted to be in? Was there anything conscious around that or do you think it was largely subconscious?
Erin
I think it was largely subconscious. I don't know if it was conscious for my parents, like getting me into team sports because they were as children too. My dad played D1 soccer, so sports were always a really important thing for us growing up. But for me, looking back, I don't think it was it was conscious, although I draw on a lot of the learnings, I would say, daily.
Ali
Did you have any particular mentors or coaches during that time that deeply shaped who you are?
Erin
John Thomas, Coach Thomas. He was my soccer coach in high school, and he had a way of being serious and kind. You knew when you could joke with him and you knew when you needed to step in line. And as a 15, 16, 17, 18-year-old, I think it's really important to know those things, right? Like when, when it's time to mess around and when it's time to, to take things seriously. And he always led with kindness. You always felt like he cared about you, even in the toughest of moments with him, which were many. It wasn't easy being on his team. But it was rewarding.
Ali
That sounds like I need to speak to Coach Thomas for some parenting tips, 'cause I'm dreading the teenage years, if I'm honest.
Erin
He unfortunately was a, I'll say a victim of ALS. And so he has since passed, but he was, touched many people in our community, I'll say that.
Ali
That's fantastic. You had such an impact. Do you see other people in other parts of your life as well? You've had a similar impact?
Erin
Well, first of all, my parents, My dad, growing up before I went to high school, when I played rec soccer, was my coach. And I think in the '80s, early '90s, for somebody to coach girls' soccer, you have to, again, have a certain personality. And so I learned a lot from him. My mum, and this is nothing against anybody who, who cheerleads, but my mum always said to us, we're never gonna cheerlead because people are gonna cheer for us. And I know that cheerleading has evolved a lot, you know, in the last 40-something years. And so again, this is not to knock on anybody who does that sport now, but it's those things that I remember from my parents that led to being, having the confidence I have today and really focusing on the things that are gonna be positive influences.
Ali
What were your kind of highlights that you remember from your team sports days? You know, the kind of the best moment of your sporting career?
Erin
You know, one, doesn't really stand out, but I'll say my favourite moments were every night before a soccer game in high school. We had what we called pasta parties, and we got together, we rotated houses, so we got together at one of the players' houses and we had dinner together, pasta, to get us ready for the game the next day. And it's actually funny because it wasn't about the sport itself. It was about the camaraderie, the teaming, the friendships. And those are the moments that, I don't know, I look back on and just get a sense of, I don't know, joy, happiness. And it's not about actually what was on the field or the court for me. Pasta parties.
Ali
That's such a lovely ritual, that.
Erin
Oh yeah.
Ali
I love the idea of that, just spending a bit of time together. For some reason it made me think I was once able to go to, it was something in New Orleans where they have like just a massive pot of like shrimps or something. It was like a pot roast or something.
Erin
Craw bake.
Ali
Craw bake, that was the one, yeah.
Erin
Yeah.
Ali
And it was, I mean, obviously these were people I didn't see every week. That sense of just coming, it's a universal thing, right? Coming together around food as a way of bonding.
Erin
Yep.
Ali
And what other people have said about you back then? How would your friends have described you as a person back then?
Erin
Passionate. Like, I, I was into things, and when I was into something, I was really into it. Sports, photography, social stuff, being with friends. Loyal. I got that from my dad. We have a funny storey in our family where we were young and we were at an ice cream, a local ice cream place in town, and my older sister never ate chocolate, like never ordered chocolate, never liked chocolate. And we went up to the window and the ice cream place accidentally gave her a chocolate ice cream cone. And so we said, you know, oh, I'm so sorry, she didn't order chocolate. And they said, yeah, she did. Anyway, we never went back to that ice cream place because of how they responded. But it's the moments, and actually I talked to my team about this too at work. That could have been such a surprise and delight or just a delight moment for our family. Like, oh, no problem here. Here's the, you know, she literally never ate chocolate. She would never order it. And instead it turned into a poor experience for us. And it was years, I think, before we went back to that particular ice cream place.
Erin
So loyalty, maybe sometimes to a fault. And I would say probably they would describe me as having a decent balance between being serious and being like, ridiculously funny. And so I try to take that into my work life too.
Ali
Do you think people would recognise you back then? That sounds like actually maybe they would.
Erin
I think so. I don't think I'm that different than I was back then. I think I've had some pivotal moments in my life that have rounded me out. But I think the characteristics that my parents raised me with are very to my core.
Ali
That's a lovely thing to be able to say as well. Those values are still serving you so well. You mentioned you had some pivotal moments.
Erin
Mm-hmm.
Ali
Uh, what are the sorts of things you're talking about? What springs to mind?
Erin
When I, when I was 29, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And so that for me completely changed my outlook on everything really. And I was working at Citigroup at the time. My manager, the way she treated me is something I'll take with me forever. Like, it was, do you need to come into the office? Do you not need to come into the office? Do what you need to do. And just like the kindness that she showed me was a learning experience for me. Not taking a moment for granted, not sweating the small stuff. Like, there are moments in meetings at work where people are so serious, and it's okay to be serious, but in my head I think, Why are we getting so worked up? Like, there's a solut— like, everything can be solved. Let's just, like, take a breath about it. And so, again, I think for me, like, I joke with my friends because my friends from high school were a group of— I think there's 7 of us. And I joke to them that I'm the 1 in 8. Like, I'm taking this one for you guys. Like, the statistic. You guys are good.
Erin
But you have to learn with me on this. And so we, April 16th was my 13-year anniversary of being cancer-free. And so we just, you know, celebrated. But it was a moment for me of, it's not that serious, enjoy it. And so I try to.
Ali
I can't imagine what that must have been like at such a young age, but also it is so inspirational really to hear what you've taken out of that experience?
Erin
It was the anchor for me. The anchor for me was like, if I'm going to do this, there's going to be a reason. There has to be a reason because otherwise it doesn't make sense. I couldn't rationalise why. And so it really helped me actually get through it. And it still does. On my toughest days, I'm like, it's not that bad. I'm here.
Ali
Yeah. Amazing. Gosh.
Erin
Yeah.
Ali
To be in the situation you are now, having been through that, absolutely phenomenal.
Erin
Yeah.
Ali
Did you ever think after that, did you think about changing something you were doing? Did you think about pursuing a completely different career or a different life or kind of taking a different tack?
Erin
I didn't want it to be about that, if that makes sense. I wanted to learn from it, but I didn't want it to define me. And so, I didn't really, but I understand why somebody would. Also. But I didn't, I didn't want it to define me at all, and I still don't. It's a moment, like how this, this conversation started, right? Like it was a moment for me. Like everybody has their, I think, moments throughout their life, and that was certainly a defining one for me, but it isn't the definition of me, if that makes sense.
Ali
It does make sense, especially given what you said about how your values, you know, kind of your core sense of your identity and what you care about is still stable from you know, from way back when to now. Is there anything that has changed? Do you have any kind of beliefs or opinions that you have changed your mind on in the last kind of 10, 20 years?
Erin
Not to my core, but how I lead has changed, has evolved. I used to think that micromanaging was the worst thing in the world. I mean, what the worst managers do, but I think that there's a moment for it. You know, if there's someone on your team struggling, if you're coaching, there's a moment for getting deeper into the work that somebody is doing. I think being macro also has its potential downfalls, and I used to think that that was the only way anybody good could lead. So I think leadership has— like, my idea of how you lead a team has evolved a bunch. That's probably the biggest sort of shift for me, I would say. But personally, I don't believe there's been a huge shift.
Ali
Understood. There's a guy called Ray Dalio who founded a hedge fund called Bridgewater, and he is basically now in the kind of legacy building phase of his life. He's just sharing his wisdom And one of the ideas he talks about is being able to operate at different levels. So there is a slightly overly simplistic narrative that is exemplified by this idea of in the weeds. Oh, you don't want to get into the weeds of it, which is, I've always felt incredibly pejorative, unnecessarily dismissive of stuff that is also equally important.
Erin
Yes.
Ali
And he talks about being able to consciously operate these different levels. You're actually okay, is it important right now to be in the detail? That is fine. That could be the right decision. Just as you say, going to a more macro level as well might be just as useful. One of tangential pieces of thinking that I think also speak to this is behavioural economics. There's a guy called Rory Sutherland who most people who listen to this podcast probably heard of him, but just a fascinating mind. Again, talks very interestingly about a very, very wide range of topics. But one of the things he talks about is behavioural economics has taught us that actually small changes can have very large impact. And again, that speaks to the fact that you don't have to think incredibly big to make a big difference to something. Sometimes those very small incidental changes are the ones that can make the biggest difference to people and also to the teams we work with.
Erin
I totally agree with that. Changes the muscle memory.
Ali
Yeah, absolutely. So, okay. So, if you were to look back and you were to have a conversation with your younger self, you can kind of choose what age this is. You was able to sit down with them and have dinner. What would you say to them?
Erin
I would say it's not that serious and it's gonna be okay. Like, I think because— and just to tie it back to, I think, the first question you asked me— because I was so passionate about stuff, I was invested in a lot. And I think, like, everything is going to be okay is what I would say.
Ali
Amazing. So in the first part of our conversation, we obviously learned about some of the things that shaped you and who you are today. In the second part, we're going to focus on the role that you are now in and your professional career and how you think about marketing as well. So first of all, how did you first get into marketing?
Erin
It was kind of by happenstance, actually. I went to school for photography. I went to the School of Visual Arts. That's where I started in Manhattan. And then very quickly realised I did not want to risk being a starving artist. I had a photographer come into one of my lectures and I think they said something like, 80% of you are not gonna be making it. And so I was like, I can't risk being part of the 80%. And so I went to, I transferred out and went to a more liberal arts school and focused on communications, took a lot of marketing classes and ended up doing marketing at Citigroup. Worked there for over a decade, actually, in a variety of different roles, and then really wanted to anchor on marketing. And so it was a nonlinear, let's say, way to get deeply into marketing.
Ali
I have a theory, actually, that nonlinear and happenstance is probably more prevalent in marketing than most careers. It's amazing how many CMOs I speak who, who did, like you say, just kind of happened to end up in marketing in some way.
Erin
I completely agree with that. I think the building blocks that you learn from, in terms of the variety of roles I had before I got deep into marketing, really help shape how I think about marketing, how I think about business outcomes, how I think about the products that I'm selling, because I understand how a Scrum team works, as an example. I think makes for a well-rounded marketer.
Ali
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, a breadth of experience, incredibly important. And actually, one of the things we talk about when we're looking for hires into our team is, you know, have you had experience outside of marketing, marketing agencies? Because I think it's so, so very important. And so obviously you went to Citigroup, took on a variety of roles there. What was Citigroup like to work with? Because as a first company to step into, it's one of the world's largest, most successful enterprises. How did that feel?
Erin
Daunting for sure. I think I have found my way now in large matrixed organisations. That's where I actually feel comfortable. But—
Ali
Yeah. And if you haven't, who knows for the rest of us? Yeah.
Erin
Exactly. Yeah. But definitely daunting. I think until you find your sort of niche in terms of like where you fit in into such a large organisation, it can be overwhelming. I was really lucky enough to have a great team that I started off with who connected me with really great mentors along the way. And so that really helped guide me in terms of career decisions I was making, navigating such a large organisation, and really making sure that as my ambitions grew, so did my network.
Ali
When you say it was a great team, one of the first things you then said was they connected you to different parts of the organisation. I think that's very interesting as well, isn't it? The glue roles, and there's quite a lot being written about that at the moment, especially as people looking at organisational rewiring with the world of, of AI. How do you now set up your teams for, say, somebody new coming in to help them have a great experience?
Erin
One of the things I learned early, actually maybe in my first role, is that my team's success is my success. And so I think when somebody new comes into the organisation on my team, or You know, if I move into a new role and I have new direct reports, I think about my role as removing friction. And that could be helping with navigating the organisation. That could be helping with decisions. That could be giving air cover to our sales counterparts, whatever, whatever it is. I find that I think a lot about. How I can make it easier for my team to do their job as a big role of mine. And I think I learned that very early on from some of my first managers at Citi, which helped me navigate that organisation.
Ali
Very cool indeed. Well, yeah, what a lovely environment to be thrown into. Because, I mean, interesting, a lot of the CMOs I speak to have had kind of roller coaster rides in the different places that they've worked, and often, it's about learning what not to do as much as it is about learning what to do. So it's great you had such a positive experience. I'm not pretending surely it was all positive, but it sounds very, very positive on balance.
Erin
But it also goes back to the player-coach mentality. Can you imagine having a soccer coach that didn't want you to succeed, that, you know, put obstacles in your way on purpose or maybe, you know, subconsciously? And so I think Again, it just ties back to the things I learned from having coaches along the way.
Ali
It's a lovely analogy. It makes it clear because it transposes what sometimes is a little bit nebulous, the success of a team, you know, regardless of how many KPIs might stick on them, success tends to be a little more nebulous than that and makes it very verifiable. Like we either won the match or we didn't, you know, we either get promoted or we don't. And I think that's a lovely way of thinking about it. So obviously now you are at another of the world's largest, most successful businesses, IBM. Tell me a little bit about IBM, you know, when you joined bit how it's changed over the years since you've been here?
Erin
It's funny because I look back on when I joined IBM in 2017 and it feels like a completely different organisation that we're in right now. In a good way. In a good way. We are more focused, more creative, I would say, more disciplined. I think this boils down to some decisions our CEO made when he became CEO, and I'm really excited about the journey that we're on. I'm really excited to be part of it. And I just think there's really bright days ahead for IBM and for the company.
Ali
That's very cool. I mean, yeah, it's been an incredible turnaround. But actually what I remember, one of the books that was, I thought, very interesting that I read relatively early on in my career was Elephants Can Dance. I thought, what a lovely idea, what beautiful phrase to begin with. And that really, really stuck with me. What about marketing at IBM then? Obviously, the organisation is, like you say, as a whole has undergone a pretty radical shift. What about the role of marketing within it?
Erin
I think the role of marketing within it has also drastically changed, evolved. And again, I think this ties very directly to leadership changes and decisions. In, gosh, I think it was 2021, we consciously, I think, Anchored on the partnership, the collaboration between sales and marketing. And I now strongly believe that a marketing organisation is not successful, will not be successful if they are not in lockstep with the sales organisation. And so nothing that I do or that my team does is not anchored, not aligned, not in collaboration with our sales colleagues. There's so many reasons for this. One, the outcomes. Are we focused on the right stuff? Two, if we're not focused on the right stuff, then all of the work that we would be doing, where is it landing? Who is catching it? Who is catching the opportunities and working them? And so I think building strong, credible relationships with sales is probably one of the more important roles that marketing has right now. And it's not a one-way street. We're not a yes organisation. That's not what I'm, you know, that's not what I'm trying to get across. We have a seat at the table.
Erin
It is a collaborative partnership that we have with sales across tech and consulting. And I would say it's a little consultative too. I, I am often called to say, hey, what do you think about this? Here's how I'm thinking about it. And so I think it just, it completely evolved over the last 5 to 7 years, how we partner with sales.
Ali
That's music to my ears. So it's a big part of how I think about marketing and our director of sales alignment, Eric, will be delighted when she listens to this. You've called that out as such a big part of the change. As a slight aside, as an agency, actually, we were set up and we always had our own inside sales function as part of the agency. So it was always part of the agency's DNA to be connected to the broader revenue function as well. But I think more than that, one of the biggest challenges that we see today with most of the clients that we work with is that lack of coherence between the different parts of the marketing function. So I think a lot has been written, a lot of very interesting things have been written about how marketing has, as a function, has been kind of pulled into different departments. So you do now have your product department, you might have your RevOps looking at kind of targeting and segmentation, you might have marketing looking at other parts of it, and price might sit somewhere else entirely. And I think that's the cause of so many challenges.
Ali
So to hear you say that actually that alignment, focusing on that alignment is one of the things that's driven the biggest positive changes, I think is great to hear. Is there anything else that you see that's caused chaos in your marketing teams and in the organisations you worked with?
Erin
I think as we've evolved, probably one of the things that, let's say, was growing pains were decision rights. And so we've worked through that. I think things are clearer now, but that was one of the things that as the organisation evolved and we became more deeply, you know, aligned to sales, who's on first was a big, was a, a big question. And so I think that one of the other things I've learned is not knowing who has decision rights can cause a lot of friction in an organisation. And so I think that clarity helps make sure that if we consider each sort of area of marketing a, a vector, an arrow, the worst thing that could happen is that all the arrows are going in different directions, maybe at the same velocity, but what we really want is the vectors in the same direction, even if they're at different velocities. And I think the only way to do that is to be aligned on priorities, which means aligned with sales, and having clear decision rights so that we know where the stops and starts are within each team. I think we've come a long way though.
Ali
It's interesting, isn't it? That sense of, there's a sense of actually having the right structure gives you more freedom to operate. But like you say, one of the things I talk about a lot at the moment to clients who think, oh, you know, you can't just add AI to something and it will get better. It's like, I'm a huge believer in the power of AI to augment teams and teams' capabilities and the value they can bring. However, there's a danger in simply giving everybody, if they're running in different directions, like you talked about the arrows, you know, I think of it as if everyone's running in different directions, all the arrows are going different directions, making them go really fast is not going to help you get to the right place.
Erin
It actually might be worse.
Ali
Exactly that. And I think we are going to see that. We're kind of already seeing it in some organisations. And I think that's part of the curve of kind of AI productivity and value. You know, there are many variables in that. I think that's part a lot of it's people working through that. And it echoes absolutely what we saw with martech and previous waves of technologies where just because you can do something faster or bigger or at scale, if everyone's still doing them in different directions, whether that's within marketing or sales teams or product teams or pricing teams, whatever it might be, that isn't going to lead to more value created for the whole system.
Erin
It's absolutely right.
Ali
So what is the one big marketing challenge that you'd love to change or overcome?
Erin
A couple of things I would say. One is making sure that we stay grounded in the products and the services and the solutions that are really gonna make the organisations that we're working with run smarter businesses. And so I think that's a key, that's a key component. And then the other I would say is making sure that we're using AI in ways that both make us more productive, but also bring different types of value. So we can use AI to automate processes that we have, and that's awesome. That brings us a certain type of value in terms of productivity. But then we're also looking at ways and are implementing ways, I should say, to use AI to drive better insights. To make better decisions, to be more personalised in the work that we do. And this actually goes back to what we just said about going fast in different directions could be a hindrance here. I have recently had so many examples, probably 10 or so, of companies reaching out to me and saying things like, hi Erin, I see the work you're doing at— and then it doesn't say IBM, it says a different company, and it's a personalization fail.
Erin
And so we wanna be really We have to be smart about how we think about personalization because if you get it wrong, it's not worth it. It just, it's just not worth it. And so I think those are probably two things that are top of mind for me, for sure, in the role, in the role that I'm in.
Ali
And for larger brands as well, obviously there is an increased sense of risk. You know, there is more brand equity at play that you have to be a little bit more respectful of, I think. It's interesting as well that you talked about the leap to automation because I agree there is plenty of value to be found in that. That kind of efficiency drive. But again, thinking of patterns that have played out in previous waves of technology, actually there are other ways of achieving value with GenAI. So effectiveness, like you said, driving better insights, leading to better work, to more effective work, absolutely another important vector of value. And then the third, I think, is also innovation, which is how do you do something entirely differently? And that might be on a small scale, or it might be a total rewiring of the team, the organisation, the ecosystems that you're in. And I'd imagine there'll be lots of both of those things. For most of us over the next few years. But you're right, I think it is, it's critical that we think about capturing value across those three vectors, not just along the idea of efficiency.
Ali
And how do you, you know, who's influenced the way that you think about marketing? Do you have any marketing heroes, people you've read or podcasts you listen to or, you know, maybe people you've met along the way?
Erin
So I went to school part-time to get my MBA while I was at Citigroup. and I took a women in business class while I was there, and our professor encouraged us to find a woman mentor that could sort of guide us through a semester-long project that we had to do on career planning. And I had a male mentor at the time. His name was David Stark— Starks, and he I went into his office and I told him what the professor had said. And I said to him, in my leadership chain at the time, there was not a woman whose career trajectory was one that I had ambition to look alike. Let's say I had greater ambition, I would say. And so he said to me, go big or go home. And I sat there like, what, you know, like, what is he saying? And he picked up his phone while I was in the office and he called the Citigroup CMO at the time, Michelle Peluso. And Michelle answered the phone and he said to her, I have this high potential in my office. She's at, you know, NYU Stern. She's doing her MBA. She has this project.
Erin
Would you mentor her through it? It's just 3 months. That's what he said. And I swear she agreed to it because she was on speakerphone and I was in the office. And so I met with Michelle and it turns out we've had a mentor mentee relationship since then. The marketing components for me are to a certain extent learned what I get most value from. In terms of aspiration and inspiration is around leadership and getting followership from your team so that you could go do big things. And so a couple things I learned from her. One is you can be a strong leader and also be kind. Like any adjective to describe you, should also include, and kind. And for me, it was just like a moment of reflection. How do people feel when they talk to me? Because you want people to want to work with you. And I say this to my team a lot. When you call somebody, do they see your name pop up and say, oh, how can I help Erin? Like, what does she need? I'm here to help. Or is it like, oh my God, why are they calling me?
Erin
And so I think kindness as an anchor point of how you lead is really important. And then the other thing is, what are your non-negotiables? So for me, dinner time with my kids is a non-negotiable, and it helps me be a better marketer and it helps me be a better leader to not be 24/7. I'm, I don't know, 18/7, but, but I have my non-negotiables. And so I think Being the best marketer that I can be includes leading with kindness. So I'm not screaming at my team, I'm not yelling at my team, I'm not making people feel bad because we're all human. And it also includes making sure that I'm true to my boundaries and that I understand my team's boundaries too.
Ali
I think that's fantastic. And also there's something in that as well, which is the understanding that you have of your particular values, how you particularly want to lead and how you'll bring that to work. So, you know, it is very rarely the kind of one-size-fits-all But having said that, if there is a one-size-fits-all, I think kindness is probably going to be up there. It reminds me of a lovely quote by Kurt Vonnegut, who's one of my favourite writers. It's something like, "Hello, hello babies, welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer, cold in the winter. It's round, it's wet, and it's crowded. You've got about 100 years here. There's only one rule I know of, and that's goddammit, you got to be kind." Yeah. That has always stuck with me. It's such a lovely, lovely way of phrasing it. And it's actually the one thing I say to my kids every morning as they go to school is, "Have fun and be kind." Well, I've recently stay curious.
Erin
That's a good one. It matters a lot in terms of how motivated your team is and how engaged your team is. And I'm lucky enough that I have people in my orbit at IBM that worked for me at Citigroup and are now at IBM, you know, that are on my team now and worked on my team in previous roles. So it just helps to be myself.
Ali
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, Just before we get onto a quickfire round as well, do you have any particularly useful tips that you've learned that could help aspiring CMOs? So interestingly, actually, the storey you referenced earlier about somebody calling the CMO of Citigroup, Michelle, you said, well, actually, maybe part of the reason she said yes is because she was on speakerphone. And I would imagine that NYU professor probably knew a little bit about what he was doing with that, which is a very nifty tip. It reminds me of a great piece of very practical advice I got once doing a brand project for a large automotive manufacturer. And the CMO said to me, look, look, we're going to need a lot of buy-in from the CEO on this. We're just going to make sure that every meeting we have with him is on Friday afternoon because he'll say yes to everything. And they were absolutely right. You know, seemingly quite trivial, irrational piece of advice, but I'm sure that made the project flow a lot better than it would otherwise have done. But yeah, do you have any tips for marketers that would help people be better marketing leaders?
Erin
So I'll steal your curiosity. I think be curious. Be curious in the questions that you ask. Be curious in how you test new technologies. I'm going to say this, I'm consciously choosing these words: know your authentic self. I'm not saying be your authentic self because I think there are moments that you have to adjust. If you are— I'm making this up, like a jokester, there are moments where you need to not be that way, right? And you need to be more serious. If you are, I don't know, like name your quality. I think there are moments where that is perfectly fine, but you have to know yourself to know when to turn it up or turn it down. So know your authentic self and know when to adjust and when to read the room a little bit. And then I would say. Make sure that you reflect on how you're making people feel, and then ask yourself, "Is that how I want to make them feel?" The awareness of feelings in the workplace is not something that people talk about, but I find that it is a huge motivator or friction point If somebody leaves a meeting with you and they don't feel good, and it doesn't mean that people have to feel great all the time.
Erin
When I say feel good, I mean feel like they learned something or feel like they have clarity of mission or feel, you know, like there's different things that you can bucket into feeling good. I just feel pretty strongly that the most successful leaders are pretty in tune to the temperature, let's say, of their team.
Ali
Interesting what you said about that second point there as well, around being your authentic self, but also knowing kind of when and how to adapt as necessary. So there's this very elegant theory about how human beings work, which I pretty much wholeheartedly subscribe to, called the extended mind. And the idea is that essentially the way we think is as deeply influenced by our context, the things that are happening around us, the people we are with, the situations we're in, as they are anything that happens internally, not just our brain, but also obviously our bodies as well. And so the idea there that yes, absolutely be your authentic self, but also you don't always have to be exactly the same in every way, in every possible situation. And that's something I think is incredibly important. Also interestingly, bringing it back to marketing as well, a very important piece of information that's missed when people talk about B2B being human to human, because the assumption then becomes, well, it's the same as being B2C, you know, human to human. And actually, we're not exactly the same people all the time in every different situation. And when I'm making a decision on a significant software or services purchase in a board meeting and justifying that, that's not the same as me dancing around to Uptown Funk with my kids in the living room, right?
Ali
So yeah, so it is human to human, but humans are a little more complex than maybe that implies.
Erin
Yes.
Ali
Good. Okay. Well, Erin, thank you. I'm going to just fire a few quick questions at you if that's okay, just to finish things off. So first question, or 5 questions, The first one is, complete this sentence: the qualities I look for in my next exceptional hire are—
Erin
Kindness and curiosity. The rest can be learned.
Ali
That's perfect. Thank you. I often say that the only problems that worry me are the ones I can't see. So, I try to be open with my team about any challenges I have or mistakes that I make to create a space where they're comfortable doing the same. In the spirit of psychological safety, what's a mistake that you've made in the past couple of weeks?
Erin
Gosh, I think it was last week, took my feelings, tone, temperament from a previous meeting into the next one. And I try really hard not to do that, but I did it. I think it was last Friday.
Ali
Very good. Thank you. Something we've all done.
Erin
Yes.
Ali
And we'll probably continue to do as much as we try not to. What's something that most people get wrong about you?
Erin
I have heard actually from multiple people that I come across very serious on Teams, Zoom, Webex, whatever, you know, whatever the, the, the video vehicle is. And when people meet me in person, they find me to be, I don't know, warmer than I think I come across sometimes on Zoom because I do think, you know, when you're at work, I don't know, every minute matters and there's like an efficiency that has to happen in meetings. And so I think I need to, to maybe be a little freer in some meetings.
Ali
That's fascinating. I wonder if that's partly, you know, you are different people in different contexts, the amount of information you're sharing with people through body language and all the rest of it. Interesting. We introduced a kind of intro questions, essentially checking questions at the beginning of each meeting when we moved to remote working. And it felt very strange. It's a very artificial thing to do, but actually did really help just to introduce a little bit of a slightly kind of random variable at the beginning of a meeting. Which makes everything else feel a little bit more natural after the result.
Erin
I think I need to do that. I'm going to steal that.
Ali
Your team will think you're super weird for the first couple of weeks of doing it, and then you start to appreciate it. Yeah, it's really good.
Erin
Actually, on that point though, I did introduce weekly walks with my team, and it's an hour every Friday that I have my calendar blocked off. People can sign up for 15-minute slots, and we go outside and we go for walks virtually or in person. And it has become a way for me to keep a pulse on the organisation, my directs cannot participate. And it's also a way for people to get to know me a little bit, you know, outside of the normal meetings that we have. So it's helped.
Ali
Awesome. Two quick questions then to finish. So what are the three technologies you're most excited about over the next 10 years?
Erin
I'm going to say two, which are AI and how we really put it to work. I think we're skimming the surface right now. And quantum.
Ali
I love that. I also would have put money on you saying that, but I'm delighted that you did. And finally, what's one piece of advice or one idea either about marketing or about life in general that you keep coming back to?
Erin
I'm gonna stick to it, which is be kind. Everybody works really hard. The world is so chaotic and a little bit of kindness goes a really long way in work and in day-to-day.
Ali
Erin, thank you. What a lovely note to end on. And thank you for being with us today and thank you for sharing so generously.
Erin
Thank you so much for having me.
